Disturbing news on Chase Credit Cards

[tmount]

Chuck over at Doctor of Credit put together a rather exhaustive post on Chase’s latest actions on approvals of Ultimate Rewards credit cards.

For me, it was a very sobering post to read. I, like many in the miles and points game, have a bunch of Chase cards. In fact, at last count, I have 8 (3 business, 5 personal), in fact, my Chase Marriott Rewards card is my longest held loyalty program credit card (and yes, its a tough decision each year, determining if the Cat 5 free night certificate can offset the annual fee).

Two major questions


Chuck highlights that Chase’s more stringent approval requirements are primarily focused on Ultimate Rewards cards (both quotes are from his latest post)

Specifically, if they see too many new accounts on your credit report they won’t approve you for a new card. This is even if the new accounts are non-Chase accounts. They always mention a 2-year time frame; if there were too many new cards opened within the past 2 years it’s much harder to be approved.
​

and

From what we can tell now, it appears that they are only targeting Ultimate Rewards-earning cards like the Sapphire and Freedom. INK seems to be included as well, although it may be slightly less restricted due to the fact that it’s a business card.
​

This presents two major questions when considering a strategy going forward.

1. Hold onto one or more Inks (depending on 5x spend), or a Sapphire Preferred card, Hope they eventually refine their approval process, and keep churning non-Ultimate Rewards cards, and non-Chase cards?
   Scale back on churning cards in the hopes of staying in favor when its time for another Chase Ink or Sapphire Preferred card.
2. Wow, writing those out, I kind’ve feel like an idiot. I mean, Chase is king, that was what I think Joe, Shawn and I said a few weeks ago, but is it enough to completely uproot a mile and point strategy?

I would argue it is not.

My plan of action


For better or for worse, I’m going to jump on one or two cards that I’ve been eyeing for a while, but have been waiting for the right time. The number one Chase card I’ll be applying for is the Chase Hyatt card. I really wasn’t a huge fan of it for a long time, given that the most you can get is a few more stay credits with spend thresholds, and it gives you free nights instead of points. But with the latest offer (need to find that) and increasingly seeing others use the card (including Gary Leff), I think its time. Besides, I’d love to see some of the options on the Chase Hyatt card that Chasing the Points shared from a survey he saw.

Other than Hyatt, I may jump on a United or Marriott Business card, because, why not?

Wrapping up


All the dire news aside, I think its important that as a community, we have the resources to share and know what is going on. That, and this reminds me of one of the more timeless quotes:

This too shall pass.
​

Because, after all, we’ve seen this game ebb and flow. Right now the economy is doing well, and logically so, airlines, credit card issuers, and hotels don’t have as great a need to be extra rewarding.

So what is your strategy regarding Chase?

Continue reading...

 

[Annie H.]

I recently had this happen with Chase and have posted it in another thread. I applied for a UA EXP and a CSP on the same day. Went to recon and they approved UA EXP but not CSP. I begged, offered to exchange regular Sapphire, re-allocate, nothing worked and I escalated several times. They were flat out "too many new cards in last two years"' I've only been doing this for one year but still. Tried to get them to tell me how long I had to wait for new app and they basically said in a coded way, "2 years"-- "you have too many new apps and we want to see how you handle this new $XXXK of credit." I asked specifically about AUs and they said they did NOT take that into consideration. I have a dozen new apps in the last year, SO perhaps 8 and was thinking of apply for him given that they did approve my UA EXP-- how to decide?

Is there any downside if they don't approve SO app? His EQ Fico (via Citi is 837) but I don't think FICO matters to Chase anymore.

 

[Stephen McCrea]

Applied for just a simple old Freedom card with great score--got rejection letter today saying "Too many cards in past two years."

 

[Annie H.]

Applied for just a simple old Freedom card with great score--got rejection letter today saying "Too many cards in past two years."

When I got my pending after application I went immediately to recon and didn't wait for the latter. 3-4 reps told me "when we get that response-- two many cards..." there is NOTHING we can do or override. Chase is really cracking down-- "simple old Freedom'-- YIKES!

 

[pstlb]

With Chase's new restrictions, I don't think anyone on this forum will be getting a new Freedom/Sapphire again.

 

[jlynmriep]

I had no Chase cards until recently. A couple of weeks ago, I applied for and got the Freedom card (with less than 5 new accounts). After hearing this news, I applied for the CSP, since I wanted to eventually be able to move the Freedom points to something transferrable. The Freedom card put me at 5 new accounts but 2 aren't showing on my credit report yet. I wasn't auto-approved and am waiting for the letter in the mail before calling (I want to know what it says so I can have a strategy if I call recon), but I don't have high hopes for this, since I have no history with Chase (aside from the new Freedom card...which I did pay off mid-cycle as my first payment so they can see I'm good for something at least, although I doubt it'll be that helpful), not a very high income, and a credit score in the low-mid 700s. Any advice?

 

[smittytabb]

I had no Chase cards until recently. A couple of weeks ago, I applied for and got the Freedom card (with less than 5 new accounts). After hearing this news, I applied for the CSP, since I wanted to eventually be able to move the Freedom points to something transferrable. The Freedom card put me at 5 new accounts but 2 aren't showing on my credit report yet. I wasn't auto-approved and am waiting for the letter in the mail before calling (I want to know what it says so I can have a strategy if I call recon), but I don't have high hopes for this, since I have no history with Chase (aside from the new Freedom card...which I did pay off mid-cycle as my first payment so they can see I'm good for something at least, although I doubt it'll be that helpful), not a very high income, and a credit score in the low-mid 700s. Any advice?

I would say that it could well likely not be approved because of the very recent Chase application. And if approved likely at a low credit limit. Hard to know though as these things are somewhat unpredictable and always changing. I never pay mid-cycle and not sure if it would help at all here. I have never waited for the letter. I usually call proactively right away. It is of course possible they would move some credit from the Freedom if you are amenable and that *could* help with approval. Whole new world out there now.

 

[gmenrule]

Is it two years from the last approved CC? The last APP? The last cancellation(not by chase)?

Freedom is great get but not worth downgrading to from some other card (no bonus).

BTW I had the Amazon CC since 08 with 25k LOC and outright cancelled it and the LOCs....no offers or other cards to switch to..called 3 times in the last 6 months to try. Got this before MS fever!

I've got United, Hyatt & Fairmont coming up this fall ..will call about retention...but can/will walk away too

in 2016 want to cycle back to CSP and use SO account to reapply for the hotel CC's............... for next great trip just got way more complicated

 

[smittytabb]

Is it two years from the last approved CC? The last APP? The last cancellation(not by chase)?

Freedom is great get but not worth downgrading to from some other card (no bonus).

BTW I had the Amazon CC since 08 with 25k LOC and outright cancelled it and the LOCs....no offers or other cards to switch to..called 3 times in the last 6 months to try. Got this before MS fever!

I've got United, Hyatt & Fairmont coming up this fall ..will call about retention...but can/will walk away too

in 2016 want to cycle back to CSP and use SO account to reapply for the hotel CC's............... for next great trip just got way more complicated

I am not sure why you would "walk away". To me, this is a reason to hold on to the cards as it could be harder to get them in the future. I cancelled my UA Explorer just last month and now really wish I had held on to it!

 

[gmenrule]

I am not sure why you would "walk away". To me, this is a reason to hold on to the cards as it could be harder to get them in the future. I cancelled my UA Explorer just last month and now really wish I had held on to it!

Looking to reboot with Chase and wait 24 months from (? see above)..I may keep United since we have 300k miles...good point
Sorry the last post rambled but it was a chain of reasoning with "starting over with Chase" in mind.....not sure its the right thing ....need feedback...from what i'm reading (all the usual sources) its about Apps in the last 2 years....need to learn more about bumpage!

 

[smittytabb]

Looking to reboot with Chase and wait 24 months from (? see above)..I may keep United since we have 300k miles...good point
Sorry the last post rambled but it was a chain of reasoning with "starting over with Chase" in mind.....not sure its the right thing ....need feedback...from what i'm reading (all the usual sources) its about Apps in the last 2 years....need to learn more about bumpage!

Hard to give advice because these are new parameters.

 

[rhinodh]

The thing I most want to know/figure out is if it's inquiries they care about or new accounts. I have no problem closing most of the cards I just got in March, now that I have the bonuses, if it's new accounts they care about and it would allow me to get a freedom/sapphire.

 

[smittytabb]

The thing I most want to know/figure out is if it's inquiries they care about or new accounts. I have no problem closing most of the cards I just got in March, now that I have the bonuses, if it's new accounts they care about and it would allow me to get a freedom/sapphire.

Read through the DOC article and comments this morning and it is somewhat hard to sort out exact answer to that. And the anecdotal evidence will always include some who break any pattern. Probably need more time and analysis to be certain.

 

[rhinodh]

Read through the DOC article and comments this morning and it is somewhat hard to sort out exact answer to that.

I did just see his article about people having success applying in branch, which gives me some relief since I just moved to an area with Chase banks everywhere. I guess it's time to open Chase checking and savings accounts!

 

[Chasing The Points]

I am not sure why you would "walk away". To me, this is a reason to hold on to the cards as it could be harder to get them in the future. I cancelled my UA Explorer just last month and now really wish I had held on to it!

How many days have passed since closing? I've never tried and don't know, but does Chase allow you to reopen an account that was closed? I know TD Bank said, in case you change your mind you have 30 days after account closure to reopen

 

[smittytabb]

How many days have passed since closing? I've never tried and don't know, but does Chase allow you to reopen an account that was closed? I know TD Bank said, in case you change your mind you have 30 days after account closure to reopen

I need to check. It is still showing up in my Chase profile as closed but with a $1.1k CL. Was wondering the same. Thing is, I am actually eligible for the bonus as I never applied for this card. It was a Continental card that was converted. It's been over 24 months since I have applied for any United product. So was planning to reapply. I checked on my United profile and the 50K offer comes up. Problem is I think they will ding me with the same reason others are not approved. Have never not been approved for a card ever. These reports have a chilling effect.

 

[Matt S NYC]

I need to check. It is still showing up in my Chase profile as closed but with a $1.1k CL. Was wondering the same. Thing is, I am actually eligible for the bonus as I never applied for this card. It was a Continental card that was converted. It's been over 24 months since I have applied for any United product. So was planning to reapply. I checked on my United profile and the 50K offer comes up. Problem is I think they will ding me with the same reason others are not approved. Have never not been approved for a card ever. These reports have a chilling effect.

You have a better shot at the United card than any of the UR cards. The UR cards are almost impossible to come by at this point, but the rules are apparently more flexible with the co-branded cards.

 

[rhinodh]

Data point on cobranded cards:

Buddy applied for SW personal plus in Feb., instant approval, CL ~$20k.

90 days later (last week or two of May), he applied for the SW personal premier. Instant approval, CL ~$20k.

He has Sapphire preferred (opened several years ago) and Freedom (opened 12-24 months ago), but no other inquiries for credit cards.

 

[Annie H.]

I am not sure why you would "walk away". To me, this is a reason to hold on to the cards as it could be harder to get them in the future. I cancelled my UA Explorer just last month and now really wish I had held on to it!

I cancelled my Bus. UA Explorer w/$19K CL thinking it would make it easier for me to get two new cards from Chase. As I've posted previously, a week later I did get the reg. UA Exp but not CSP, and got the "too many...last two years." Now I wonder if perhaps the fact that I cancelled a business card made them think I was in business trouble?

My experience is just like yours-- except I'm older --I've never ever been denied a CC in 50 years! (not counting a stupid OBC dboule app semi-fiasco) Oh well, too late now. II've never been able to find any real info on the affect being denied a CC has on one's FICO score. SO is terrified of it--jeez-- he just got AA EQ Fico score-- 838-- I don't think he has to worry.

 

[Annie H.]

I did just see his article about people having success applying in branch, which gives me some relief since I just moved to an area with Chase banks everywhere. I guess it's time to open Chase checking and savings accounts!

We do NOT bank at Chase but last year when SO wanted to apply for the "in branch" extra points offer for Ink he called up, discussed it with a "personal banker for our county " SO Faxed in his Ink app. and then we had a phone call where banker submitted SO's app for him over the phone w/o having to go into branch. I thought it quite an interesting experience as I like to avoid going into banks whenever possible.

 

[Annie H.]

The thing I most want to know/figure out is if it's inquiries they care about or new accounts. I have no problem closing most of the cards I just got in March, now that I have the bonuses, if it's new accounts they care about and it would allow me to get a freedom/sapphire.

I had very extensive conversations with three separate analysts when I was denied. They were quite clear that they were unable to tell me much but were able to confirm things that I said to them (I've reported this elsewhere). What we ended up with is: ME: so to Chase with all the new accounts and credit I've gotten in the last year I look like a possible credit risk?" Rep "I couldn't have said it better myself. We need to see how you handle all your new credit." (I did try to talk about how I handled all my old credit but they were NOT interested in that). In the last 365 days I've gotten over 100K of new credit and nearly a dozen cards and that many apps. I then tried to find out how long I'd have to wait to apply again-- was it another year?-- and he basically said yes but indirectly. Again, they made it very clear this was NOT about Chase apps and cards but EVERY SINGLE new/old card and my total CL from all my cards.

Hope this is helpful. There's an algorithim with some sort of criteria and when you pull the lever and the "too many cards in last two years" comes up-- you crap out.

 

[InstinctX]

I am not sure why you would "walk away". To me, this is a reason to hold on to the cards as it could be harder to get them in the future. I cancelled my UA Explorer just last month and now really wish I had held on to it!

Did they offer any retention offer? I accepted their crappy $60 statement credit. (They already waived the $95 Ink Plus AF's) Also, I know that my new BoA CC's will ding me for a while ....

 

[knick1959]

Sorry the last post rambled but it was a chain of reasoning with "starting over with Chase" in mind.....not sure its the right thing ....need feedback...from what i'm reading (all the usual sources) its about Apps in the last 2 years....need to learn more about bumpage!

I used to have a slow-motion strategy with "churning" Chase cards. It was hardly churning, tho. Chase IS my bank and I'd just rather not tick them off. However, I am now feeling a little less loyal, but that's for another discussion.

I am on my second United card, and my second IHG card (had a Priority Club before). I canceled my previous ones, then out of extreme caution, waited 2 years until they dropped out of sight of my online account record (I could no longer select them as "visible" ... they were no longer on that list). I currently have 6 personal cards and 1 business card with them. 3 of the personal cards acquired "in the last 2 years".

So, starting over with Chase after 2 years used to be my strategy, too, sort of. But it's NOT apps that they are now counting, it's NEW ACCOUNTS. And ALL NEW ACCOUNTS. So, unless they back out on their strictness, you have to hold off on getting more than a couple new cards FROM ANYONE in the next 2 years. That's too high of a price to pay for me.

Also this means that bumpage, if you can manage to make that work now (see my posts in an aptly named thread somewhere else here; it isn't working any more ... not the old way at least) isn't going to help you here.

My wife was denied a Freedom card 2-3 weeks ago. Too many accounts in the last 2 years. Recon wasn't budging, and claimed 15 cards in the last 2 years. This threw us way off guard ... I wasnt't prepared for that number. And that wasn't right at all. Between the 2 of us, with her as an AU on my cards? Maybe. Probably. I use my credit for cards way more aggressively than hers.

I can't live on "only" 5 cards every 2 years, and even THAT is too many for Chase. The good news is that I have a long-term CSP AND Freedom and had no plans to fiddle with them. My wife's could have stood a small Chase shuffle, but this is now dinked. This does, however, deminish any possible need for HER CSP card. And when we cancel it in the coming months, I will make sure they know it would have been kept if we could have paired it with a Freedom card for her.

I guess, for me, this isn't a horrible thing. I would certainly have rather finished my Master Plan and connected my wife with a Freedom card. Good things could have come from that. But we're not in too bad a shape without it. My system has only ticked Chase on the edges, and I guess that changes. Let's see how widespread this becomes outside of Chase.

 

[smittytabb]

Did they offer any retention offer? I accepted their crappy $60 statement credit. (They already waived the $95 Ink Plus AF's) Also, I know that my new BoA CC's will ding me for a while ....

Well, last year they gave me 4K miles, which was not much. This year they offered me nada and closed the card. I had spent over 25K the year before and hadn't used the card all year even once. After the United devaluation, they lost me as a customer. I only fly United when I am going to see my father in D.C. as they fly to IAD.

 

[Kim @Savy.Traveler]

I used to have a slow-motion strategy with "churning" Chase cards. It was hardly churning, tho. Chase IS my bank and I'd just rather not tick them off. However, I am now feeling a little less loyal, but that's for another discussion.

I am on my second United card, and my second IHG card (had a Priority Club before). I canceled my previous ones, then out of extreme caution, waited 2 years until they dropped out of sight of my online account record (I could no longer select them as "visible" ... they were no longer on that list). I currently have 6 personal cards and 1 business card with them. 3 of the personal cards acquired "in the last 2 years".

So, starting over with Chase after 2 years used to be my strategy, too, sort of. But it's NOT apps that they are now counting, it's NEW ACCOUNTS. And ALL NEW ACCOUNTS. So, unless they back out on their strictness, you have to hold off on getting more than a couple new cards FROM ANYONE in the next 2 years. That's too high of a price to pay for me.

Also this means that bumpage, if you can manage to make that work now (see my posts in an aptly named thread somewhere else here; it isn't working any more ... not the old way at least) isn't going to help you here.

My wife was denied a Freedom card 2-3 weeks ago. Too many accounts in the last 2 years. Recon wasn't budging, and claimed 15 cards in the last 2 years. This threw us way off guard ... I wasnt't prepared for that number. And that wasn't right at all. Between the 2 of us, with her as an AU on my cards? Maybe. Probably. I use my credit for cards way more aggressively than hers.

I can't live on "only" 5 cards every 2 years, and even THAT is too many for Chase. The good news is that I have a long-term CSP AND Freedom and had no plans to fiddle with them. My wife's could have stood a small Chase shuffle, but this is now dinked. This does, however, deminish any possible need for HER CSP card. And when we cancel it in the coming months, I will make sure they know it would have been kept if we could have paired it with a Freedom card for her.

I guess, for me, this isn't a horrible thing. I would certainly have rather finished my Master Plan and connected my wife with a Freedom card. Good things could have come from that. But we're not in too bad a shape without it. My system has only ticked Chase on the edges, and I guess that changes. Let's see how widespread this becomes outside of Chase.

Convert her CSP into a freedom if you are willing to for go the bonus. I just converted mine into a second Freedom.

 

[knick1959]

So, unless they back out on their strictness, you have to hold off on getting more than a couple new cards FROM ANYONE in the next 2 years. That's too high of a price to pay for me.

I think that business cards, which don't show up on your personal credit report, aren't going to hurt anyone from this angle. Sure, you get the hard pull, but a new business card account (from perhaps anyone BUT Chase?) should be harder to see and count, eh?

Now this is an interesting angle. Perhaps Chase will inadvertently inspire a whole new generation of entrepeneurs!

 

[knick1959]

Convert her CSP into a freedom if you are willing to for go the bonus. I just converted mine into a second Freedom.

Thanks. Unfortunately the bonus was the big draw (and the fact that I referred her , probably another negative for us). AND, if you don't have a CSP, you can't xfer the points out. The combo was the attractive part, with the added bonus.

 

[smittytabb]

I had very extensive conversations with three separate analysts when I was denied. They were quite clear that they were unable to tell me much but were able to confirm things that I said to them (I've reported this elsewhere). What we ended up with is: ME: so to Chase with all the new accounts and credit I've gotten in the last year I look like a possible credit risk?" Rep "I couldn't have said it better myself. We need to see how you handle all your new credit." (I did try to talk about how I handled all my old credit but they were NOT interested in that). In the last 365 days I've gotten over 100K of new credit and nearly a dozen cards and that many apps. I then tried to find out how long I'd have to wait to apply again-- was it another year?-- and he basically said yes but indirectly. Again, they made it very clear this was NOT about Chase apps and cards but EVERY SINGLE new/old card and my total CL from all my cards.

Hope this is helpful. There's an algorithim with some sort of criteria and when you pull the lever and the "too many cards in last two years" comes up-- you crap out.

Yes, thanks for this info. A new reality is coming into play. And I am not liking it.

 

[El Ingeniero]

Applied for an Ink Plus and a Hyatt at the same time about a month ago. Got the Plus, was turned down for the Hyatt due to too many applications. Guess I got lucky and they got things backwards.

 

[Annie H.]

I think that business cards, which don't show up on your personal credit report, aren't going to hurt anyone from this angle. Sure, you get the hard pull, but a new business card account (from perhaps anyone BUT Chase?) should be harder to see and count, eh?

Now this is an interesting angle. Perhaps Chase will inadvertently inspire a whole new generation of entrepeneurs!

Almost a year ago when I applied for my UA EXP Bus I had to go to recon and offered to re-allocate from personal-- they said it wasn't possible-- but they went ahead and gave me $20K CL and then said "we've extended all the credit we can to you at this time."-- (I swear I wish I could tell issuers-- "please don't give me so much credit"-- and in fact with my recent AS recon. call I did talk about that--but they decided to give me $12.5K on each card each plus the $12.5K on my first AS card but they reduced a card I had by $7K on my first app. and closed it on the second round -- which was OK, I didn't use the card but really...)

With my recent UA EXP and CSP app (CSP didn't get approved) I had to go to recon and they asked about the UA--"how much credit are you looking for?"-- I don't have to do recon very often but I don't think I've seen that many reports of that question being asked. So I said, "$15K" and the rep said, "I can only approve up to $10K, have to pass you on to *senior* analyst, anything else you want to say?" Me: "Yep, I'm willing to re-allocate whatever I need to do" and then I gave him the numbers. A couple days later I called and got the card and CL and was not able to do anything with CSP.

So-- the moral of this story is-- business CL doesn't show up on your credit report but Chase definitely counts a business card CL in deciding the total amount of credit they are willing to extend to you which now appears to be secondary to the total amount of CCs you've applied for/received in the last two years.

 

[knick1959]

So-- the moral of this story is-- business CL doesn't show up on your credit report but Chase definitely counts a business card CL in deciding the total amount of credit they are willing to extend to you which now appears to be secondary to the total amount of CCs you've applied for/received in the last two years.

I had to call in a couple of years ago to get my INK, and I believe they discussed my personal cards with me at that time. I'm sure Chase takes all of your history with them into account, particularly if a person is involved. But business cards from other banks would be protected from their perview, short of the hard pull. In short, they would have trouble counting those as "new accounts" in their calculations.

Does anyone know if a bank can pull a business credit report?

 

[Annie H.]

Does anyone know if a bank can pull a business credit report?

They can easily pull a D&B (notoriously inaccurate) , not sure what other CRs available.

 

[Voyaging Doc]

Agree with Annie H regarding counting business card CL. with second chase ink over a year ago they tallied up total credit extended including the first ink card

 

[Better_by_Design]

With Chase's new restrictions, I don't think anyone on this forum will be getting a new Freedom/Sapphire again.

That is the understatement of the year!

 

[tmount]

I would say that it could well likely not be approved because of the very recent Chase application. And if approved likely at a low credit limit. Hard to know though as these things are somewhat unpredictable and always changing. I never pay mid-cycle and not sure if it would help at all here. I have never waited for the letter. I usually call proactively right away. It is of course possible they would move some credit from the Freedom if you are amenable and that *could* help with approval. Whole new world out there now.

I'd definitely call sooner rather than later!