The 5/24 rule is nonsense

[Matt]

You know what happens when everyone starts trying to break the news about a change in miles or points? They inject their own perception, guess work, and other nonsense in order to appear authoritative. The more you listen the more your reality becomes shaped by these rules, and the knowledge that you seek limits you.

Here's a recent reconsideration call that I had with a rep for an Ink.

Me: <hi give me my ink bro, etc>
Rep: Well it appears you were denied for too many credit applications, which I happen to agree with.

Me: <yeah, ok but I need a lot of cards.. etc>
Rep: One of the reasons is that you have applied for more than 5 cards in 24 months, many more in fact

Me: <yeah but as I just explained, I'm different from your average customer, I need more because of reasons that make a lot of sense etc..>
Rep: OK let me review

[Hold for few minutes]

Rep: OK I've reviewed this and cannot extend you new credit because you have too much credit in too short a time, applying for many cards in a short period (over 5 in 24 months) means we don't have the data available to properly assess your repayment ability and overall relationship risk.
Me: But I don't want more credit, I want the same amount of credit from you, or even less, I just want another Ink.

The faffing went on for some time, but in the end the rep approved my account, after flat out denying me three times in a row. I simply explained my position, why I was special, and why it made sense, and he was happy to oblige.

My own authoritative disclosure
I included the mention of risk exposure for new credit and how that might be a source of the 5/24 concern, which is interesting when everyone who churns cards thinks it is due to churning... but that too was just a single conversation which should be taken with the same pinch of salt you should take with everything.

You could also argue that the '5/24' rule doesn't apply to Ink cards right now but will in the future. But my answer to that is that your rules won't stop me from trying, and more often than not, when you try something with a logical argument, a valid reason, and an open mind, you get things done.

 

[GettingReady]

I've been reading data points of others getting approved in spite of being over the limit. Guess it boils down to negotiation or smoozing ability.

 

[henrygeorge]

The CSR is at an unfair advantage with that accent...

 

[GettingReady]

The CSR is at an unfair advantage with that accent...

I'm surprised Matt hasn't started a side business calling recon for people. I hear the going rate is $25 based on approval. It's slightly more if the wife has to call authorizing the husband to speak for her.

 

[PillanSmye]

I don't think the 5/24 rule has anything to do with churning. It's all about risk exposure. If they wanted to stop churning, they'd just go to 1 bonus/product/lifetime a la AMEX

 

[RRD]

I got approved for Marriott and IHG on the same day at the end of Feb. Sapphire is under special review currently. Have had more than 10 apps in the last two years. So, yes : 5/24 not all that strongly enforced.

 

[GettingReady]

I got approved for Marriott and IHG on the same day at the end of Feb. Sapphire is under special review currently. Have had more than 10 apps in the last two years. So, yes : 5/24 not all that strongly enforced.

Did you apply for the CSP first? I'm thinking of the CSP, IHG, and Hyatt for hubs. He's was turned down last July for the CSP but thought we'd try again.

 

[Ttitle]

I was pre-approved for a Chase Freedom in branch while signing up for their 300/200 promo. I may not have had 5 credit card signups in the last 24 days, but I was pretty close.

 

[Craig]

Just did the exact same thing, 45 minute phone call for 2nd Ink recon, explained away all of the reps worries despite having ~30 new accounts in the last year.

Second Ink with EIN or the same SSN used as the first one?

 

[Matt]

Second Ink with EIN or the same SSN used as the first one?

I have 3 inks with 3 EINs linked to 1 SSN, and 1 Ink with one of those 3 EINs with a different SSN.

 

[Craig]

I have 3 inks with 3 EINs linked to 1 SSN, and 1 Ink with one of those 3 EINs with a different SSN.

Guess it's time to get another EIN...

 

[ctbarron]

Well, @Matt has inspired me to try again with recon on my recently denied Ink.

I applied in late Feb, finally got the rejection letter two days ago. The reasons listed were too many accounts opened recently and too many active accounts/too much available credit one. FWIW the credit report they pulled (EQ) would have shown 6 inquiries, but if they looked elsewhere the number is over 10. This app was for a new, low-revenue EIN linked to my SSN. I have one existing Ink from 2012.

When I called recon yesterday I got the "what don't you understand about too many/too much" speech. The rep was also one of those that barely said anything - lots of one word responses - which makes it more difficult (for me at least) to work the conversation around to where I want it.

 

[SanDiego1K]

Chase is definitely cracking down. My husband's FICO is over 800. He has two Chase cards where he is primary. He is AU on two of my cards. He has applied for well over 5 cards in 24 months with several in the Citi and AMEX families. First he applied for the Sapphire card. It has been over two years since he had one. He was rejected. Too much credit; too many queries. He applied for Ink. The refusal came yesterday. Too much credit, too many queries. I am going to have him call about that. We are in the process of launching a new business where we need to separate the expenses from the existing business. I am hopeful that because he can make a very effective case about what he is doing and anticipated revenues he will get the decision reversed. A year ago, both cards would have sailed thru approvals. After this, I'm really intimidated about applying for any more Chase cards on his behalf.

 

[GettingReady]

I took my husband off my Chase a few weeks ago. He applied for the CSP last July and was turned down. First CC in years. CS over 800. They said he didn't need a CSP since he had access to a card. We're going to try again next week.

 

[RRD]

Did you apply for the CSP first? I'm thinking of the CSP, IHG, and Hyatt for hubs. He's was turned down last July for the CSP but thought we'd try again.

Yeah, applied for all three on the same day, Sapphire being the first. Bank rep has put in a "special consideration" for the Sapphire because we have a checking and savings a/c with them. You can go that route and see.

 

[ElainePDX]

Just a reminder that if you are a private client at Chase or they are courting you to be one, they can request an extra recon. Worked for me when I was denied for an Ink but it was before the so-called 5/24 business started. Still the recon rep had given me a very hard time for multiple CCs and low business income even then.

The banker requested another recon and it went through. I did not call a second time myself - just let the banker's request work through the system. I had applied in branch just to ensure the extra level of recon but the banker might have requested it anyway, as I am a known customer at the branch and despite my gentle negative replies to their efforts to make me a private client, they continue being nice to me. Then again, things in Oregon sometimes go more easily than elsewhere....

 

[Belisarius]

Rules are theoretical until enforced. Part of their theoretical efficacy is that they dissuade 90% of the populace from even exploring the limits. Until someone does, publicizes it, and the rest pour through the breach.

I applied for the Hyatt, IHG and Biz Explorer all on the same day back in February. Got all three despite 20 card applications in the last 2 years and already holding five Chase cards. Now up to 8 Chase accounts and looking to add one or two more in ten days.

As for the business cards process, this is a test where you already know the questions and objections. Take out a piece of paper and organize your thoughts for ten minutes before calling. You already know the anticipated objections, so have a rap prepared to explain why you're a special unique snowflake.

The interesting thing about this game is that it calls upon a lot of skills, some largely unrelated, and it's great to have a community like this one where we can draw upon each other's strengths.

 

[ChuckSithe]

I second Henry's thoughts. I think 5/24 doesn't apply to you because of the accent

 

[MickiSue]

It could be the accent. Or it could be that Matt has learned the ancient trick of repeating a logical argument over and over.

My favorite saying, when dealing with recalcitrant CSRs is "I'm sorry, that doesn't work for me."

So: blah blah, blah, 5/24 rule.

I'm sorry, that doesn't work for me. I'm not looking for new credit, I want my existing credit apportioned to the new card, which I need for my business in order to maintain meticulous records.

blah, blah, blah, inability to discern risk.

I'm sorry, as I told you, I am not looking for new credit, merely to assign existing credit to this new card, in order to maintain meticulous records for my special business.

Repeat, ad nauseam, or until CSR gives up in despair at not getting this pleasant but stubborn person to take no for an answer.

 

[SOC 787]

^ LOL ... great discussion here.

anyone have any tips on how to sail the waters w/Citi and their steadfast rule of not approving new accts for folks who have 6+ inqs in the last 6mo?

has persistence like this paid off with them? ... I spoke to a supervisor, and they were like we have proprietary criteria for how we approve new accts lol. I was tryna gather more info for em by playing dumb and asking as much as I could to ascertain info for future apps/recons.

he was pretty adamant even when I told him I dont need more credit, just move it around from a cpl existing cards. but he wouldnt budge on opening up the new acct.

 

[Craig]

^ LOL ... great discussion here.

anyone have any tips on how to sail the waters w/Citi and their steadfast rule of not approving new accts for folks who have 6+ inqs in the last 6mo?

has persistence like this paid off with them? ... I spoke to a supervisor, and they were like we have proprietary criteria for how we approve new accts lol. I was tryna gather more info for em by playing dumb and asking as much as I could to ascertain info for future apps/recons.

he was pretty adamant even when I told him I dont need more credit, just move it around from a cpl existing cards. but he wouldnt budge on opening up the new acct.

Where did you hear anything regarding Citi not approving new accounts after 6 inquiries in 6 months? I have been beyond that at many points in the last few years and have never been denied a new account with Citi.

Edit - just checked and I have 6 inquiries from Citi alone in the last 6+ months.

 

[Matt]

just checked and I have 6 inquiries from Citi alone in the last 6+ months.

Yep

 

[SOC 787]

Where did you hear anything regarding Citi not approving new accounts after 6 inquiries in 6 months? I have been beyond that at many points in the last few years and have never been denied a new account with Citi.

Edit - just checked and I have 6 inquiries from Citi alone in the last 6+ months.

from general datapoints/consensus on FT... obv the recon supervisor didnt indulge my specific Qs... but there seems to be a wall.

so anyways, about my Q - how exactly do you go past that? if you have more than 6 inqs on the CB they pull how do you go about handling that recon call when all they say is 'we cant approve you, cause we have a proprietary formula we use to access new accts' ... part of which is the # of inqs that is acceptable to em.

do you just HUCA and plead your case to anyone willing to listen and someone who'd overturn? they made it sound like they cant even manually override the 'computer decision' ... not sure how much faith I have in that. but Citi is Citi. so any tips would help!

 

[MickiSue]

You do have to use your own knowledge of your financial situation to see it, so far as possible, from their POV.

They may SAY too many inquiries. But what they mean might be that your CL is 4 X your annual income, and all the cards are 2 years old or newer.

HUCA is less likely to be of help, in that case.

 

[cavil]

Faffing with recalcitrant CSRs -- gotta love this! (Is faffing general British or Yorkshire regional?)

In my case, given the January Serve pogrom, there is to be a natural lacuna in my CC apps.

 

[dukerau]

from general datapoints/consensus on FT... obv the recon supervisor didnt indulge my specific Qs... but there seems to be a wall.

so anyways, about my Q - how exactly do you go past that? if you have more than 6 inqs on the CB they pull how do you go about handling that recon call when all they say is 'we cant approve you, cause we have a proprietary formula we use to access new accts' ... part of which is the # of inqs that is acceptable to em.

do you just HUCA and plead your case to anyone willing to listen and someone who'd overturn? they made it sound like they cant even manually override the 'computer decision' ... not sure how much faith I have in that. but Citi is Citi. so any tips would help!

From what I've read about Citi's 6/6 rule, it's not universally enforced by any means. I've seen people report well over 6 inquiries (same bureau) in prior 6 months and get approved without issue. I think it's one element in the model they use.

Great post, Matt. You're dead-on about this community turning assumptions and conjecture into rules, and those rules preventing people from even attempting things that could work.

 

[SOC 787]

You do have to use your own knowledge of your financial situation to see it, so far as possible, from their POV.

They may SAY too many inquiries. But what they mean might be that your CL is 4 X your annual income, and all the cards are 2 years old or newer.

HUCA is less likely to be of help, in that case.

my CL is well within reason (half of annual income, and with Citi in particular prolly under 10%.) my utilization is low. like I said I have a few Citi cards but those that I dont even use (after meeting min spend or retention offers,) and could transfer CL from. since I've been churning, I've also been closing Citi cards down when they arent useful. thinking this would free up space and CL. it has helped, its like a quasi dopamine rush getting instant approved on your AoRs.

well, the last point might be poignant and I might need help in circumnavigating that if its possible. I have been churning heavily for 24 months to the dot. got about 30 new cards since then so as you can imagine my AAoA has taken a nose dive. when prior to that tap opening, I only had about 3-4 CCs.

 

[MickiSue]

my CL is well within reason (half of annual income, and with Citi in particular prolly under 10%.) my utilization is low. like I said I have a few Citi cards but those that I dont even use (after meeting min spend or retention offers,) and could transfer CL from. since I've been churning, I've also been closing Citi cards down when they arent useful. thinking this would free up space and CL. it has helped, its like a quasi dopamine rush getting instant approved on your AoRs.

well, the last point might be poignant and I might need help in circumnavigating that if its possible. I have been churning heavily for 24 months to the dot. got about 30 new cards since then so as you can imagine my AAoA has taken a nose dive. when prior to that tap opening, I only had about 3-4 CCs.

I wasn't implying that you, personally, had that particular issue, rather, that frequently we get pat answers from CSRs, leading us never to learn the real reason.

One thing I learned long ago is that "Why not?" is the wrong question. The right question is "How can we make this work?" CSRs are not used to customers who take a collaborative stance, so it'll take a while. But, as Matt shows, it just might work.

I *was* my husband on a recon call. He got the card, and I got the AU card.

With the evil, hard hearted Chase.

 

[SOC 787]

yeah whenever I've asked: how can we make this work? ... they always come back with - 'we welcome you to try again in the future.' usually they say 6 months.

and that's where I'm stuck at. I mean what do you say to that. I've tried regurgitating these points. but like I said we come to a standstill - CSR or even the supervisor just aint willing to play ball.

which is why I ask here, how do you make it work esp on personal cards with someone like Citi (the only bank I can churn right now) ... for ex: what do you say that makes you special or stand out? just looking for more pointers in that direction. so I can try hopefully some new techniques. cause the usual stuff aint working.

 

[Matt]

yeah whenever I've asked: how can we make this work? ... they always come back with - 'we welcome you to try again in the future.' usually they say 6 months.

I like the idea of collaborative negotiation, and I will always use it. A recent example of this was when I wanted to get some free tickets to the UFC. Here is how I worded the question:

Hi <name>

Considering coming out to see you guys. Does mLife have anything for tickets for UFC 196 if we were to come out this weekend?

Just a single sentence, but I added the following components to it:

1. Risk that I'm not coming out (use of word considering)
2. Collaboration (does mLife, not do YOU)
3. Light, friendly, not confrontational, not demanding.

My wife thought that just asking was insane, but I asked like this,and I got the tickets.

When we do things like this I recall the concepts of sentence structure in regards to nouns/verbs/objects and all that. While you can see from my writing that I'm not great at using English 'properly' I do know how to both write and somewhat speak in a way that conveys the message I'm seeking. This comes down to thinking about how the person will reply and react to tone.

Now, going back to collaborative negotiation, you need to have awareness of the side of the sale you are on. Are you the buyer or the seller? I've written about this mindset in the past. In the case of Chase and the card, you are NOT the buyer, because you are not entitled to it. You are the seller, and you need to sell the notion that you should succeed.

This is very important because the phrase:

How can we make this work?

Is a BUYER side power phrase. A buyer is the guy that holds what you want as a seller... and you are asking the other person to find the solution. In the case of when you are talking Chase into your 8th Ink card you have to ask yourself:

Why would they want to?

As a SELLER your position in the negotiation with Chase is to lead the BUYER (CSR) to a solution that they find acceptable. By asking them:

How can we make this work?

You are making them do the work for you, and they simply won't because there is not enough power in the negotiation from your side.

Anecdotally to show the inverse:

I once set up a deal where the client found what they wanted, but they couldn't afford it. From my side I wanted to make it work because a deal is a deal and everyone would win if we could find a solution. In that situation I was faced by a client who said 'I can't do it' and I replied with 'how can we make it work?' We sat down over beers with our iPhones out running numbers and eventually found numbers that made sense, and a story to justify the changes.

In this scenario it was two sides of a table collaborating because we both wanted it to work out. The client was in weakness, but to help I would be willing to find a joint solution.

The Chase CSR doesn't have that motivation, so my negotiation with them would need to have a very different flavor. It would still collaborate, because the alternative to collaboration is conflict, and that is a hard one to manage (unless you are in the power seat) but I would not expect them to find the solutions for me, rather I would help them see the light.

The single most important thing to remember for those who are starting out with negotiation is that allowing the parameters of others to set the limits on the win/loss from the situation will absolutely destroy you.

 

[henrygeorge]

If we don't have a biz card, what's the key to the "we cannot shift credit from personal to business" spiel? While I may have 50k in personal credit with Chase, that's the point of shutdown in my conversations.

 

[Matt]

If we don't have a biz card, what's the key to the "we cannot shift credit from personal to business" spiel? While I may have 50k in personal credit with Chase, that's the point of shutdown in my conversations.

I just answered that. You have to actively listen to the reason and logic being presented and reframe it. If you are stuck in the mindset of thinking:

Spiel requires counter spiel

You are doomed.


Broadly though you need to know why there is a problem. Why would they need to shift credit? Is it that you have too much credit? What could you do about that?

 

[vostrovs]

This is awesome. I love this thread. It inspired me to call back to Chase for recon #3 on my Slate. What the hell? I was not even supposed to have recon #2. I have digested the points, will use in the field, and report out what happens. This is fun!

 

[Alice]

Being serious.... a good add-on to one of the events/DOs might be a recon call session where we role play recon calls with each other. It's interesting to hear other people's strategies and I'm in the camp that believes that social engineering skills can be improved through practice. Plus, it would facilitate us interacting with each other. It could be like speed dating but practicing recon calls.

 

[Matt]

Being serious.... a good add-on to one of the events/DOs might be a recon call session where we role play recon calls with each other. It's interesting to hear other people's strategies and I'm in the camp that believes that social engineering skills can be improved through practice. Plus, it would facilitate us interacting with each other. It could be like speed dating but practicing recon calls.

I was toying with the idea of doing that during my session.