The 5/24 rule is nonsense

[Belisarius]

Being serious.... a good add-on to one of the events/DOs might be a recon call session where we role play recon calls with each other. It's interesting to hear other people's strategies and I'm in the camp that believes that social engineering skills can be improved through practice. Plus, it would facilitate us interacting with each other. It could be like speed dating but practicing recon calls.

Role playing is very helpful. Add a video record for a true self-learning tool.

Matt shared some great stuff above and if I could offer one practical suggestion that makes or breaks so many negotiations - the most common mistake of smart people with lot of information to share - is to learn to find comfort with silence.

Once the person is considering your proposition, be quiet. Do not break silence. Do not babble because you're nervous or there's some tension after the ask and you're worried about a negative outcome. And close directly - don't offer a meandering half-query that ends with a rising voice inflection at the end and weak minimizing language sprinkled throughout.

Summarize their position accurately and respectfully, state your own, ask a direct close.

"Jim Bob, given your reasonable concern about extending new credit, but in light of the fact that I have handled my current credit flawlessly, and factoring in my need to have this product for my nascent business selling porcelain unicorns, I'm open to reapportioning existing credit. Will you re-allocate $5,000 from my ESTABLISHED Ink Plus credit and devote that to my new United Explorer Business card?"

Now be quiet. FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY.

If they say yes, say thank you. You're done. I've watched people win and then talk the person out of it because of their nervous babble and need to self-disclose.

If they say no, let them explain without interrupting. Ask a relevant clarifying question, sympathize with their response and do the exact same summary in different words, followed by your close.

No turns into yes fairly often. This is not manipulation. It's not being "salesy." It's being respectful of another person's concerns, summarizing them accurately and then proposing a mutually agreeable strategy.

 

[MickiSue]

And...even if it IS salesy, that's not a bad thing. Sales is the art of helping someone to make a decision that it mutually beneficial.

They get a card sale to a reliable customer. You get the card that you want.

 

[vostrovs]

Matt - 1 hour and 40 minutes on the phone, going back and forth with associate and, then, manager....no luck......but, I feel like I just did negotiations 101.....the only reason that the guys rehashed time and time again was "it has been too little time between credit card openings".....I put a primer together that I used, a script, and stuck to it for this time....if it is appropriate, I can share, but only if you approve Matt

 

[fpguy]

Next time you are at a Dunkin Donuts or any other food establishment that sells cheap items I challenge you to walk out with an item for free. This is by no means an original idea, in fact it's called an option close. Walk up to the cashier, and place an order for a donut. Then fumble around and "realize" you forgot your wallet. Next say "I'm sorry I totally forgot my wallet but I'm still a bit hungry. If you were to give me a donut for free, would it be vanilla or chocolate?" After they pick one say "thank you I'll take that then" and then turn around and take a step away. 9/10 times they will give you the donut. Make sure to buy some stuff from them next time you are there so you aren't just being an ass.

The same types of thinking apply to this hobby. It's good to practice these sorts of things regularly though.

 

[Matt]

Matt - 1 hour and 40 minutes on the phone, going back and forth with associate and, then, manager....no luck......but, I feel like I just did negotiations 101.....the only reason that the guys rehashed time and time again was "it has been too little time between credit card openings".....I put a primer together that I used, a script, and stuck to it for this time....if it is appropriate, I can share, but only if you approve Matt

Certainly happy to see it.

I have worked with people in the past who use scripts, but they never worked for me.

 

[vostrovs]

Matt - here it is:

my script in the nutshell. We went back and forth for 1 hour and 40 minutes:

Their message was unchanged....too little time between card openings....the only solution is to let time pass before next application is approved

My message was as follows - I stuck to it and repeat it time and time again for 100 minutes. I did not do it sequentially, but tried to listen to their words and weave things into my responses as they made sense.

1. I really like the chase products and have a very long history with Chase. I believe that I received my first card with you 10-15 years ago
2. My history with Chase has also been the one of growth and responsible credit management. I started with $200 credit line as a student and grew it to some $120,000 now.
3. The credit line growth has not been hit with any payment delinquencies or late payment fees – I am a responsible credit user
4. I specifically like Slate for its three aspects: a) my ability to transfer balances for free in the first 60 days; b) it is a zero fee card – a no brainer to get to continue building the age of my credit; c) long 0% period on purchases and balance transfers
5. I will be more than happy to move credit around to allow more flexibility by Chase to open up a Slate product for me – $1,000 would be plenty of credit limit on Slate
6. I can also consider closing a credit card and lowering my credit limit tresh-hold to get opportunity to get Slate
7. I'm different from your average customer, I need more because of reasons that make a lot of sense etc
8. I need alot of different credit cards for legitimate reasons: keeping expenses separate, maximizing credit card portfolio to earn back value, SPG for stays with SPG hotels, Ink for business, AA Advantage for American Flights, Southwest personal for personal Southwest flights, Southwest business for business Southwest flights, Hyatt for Hyatt stays, etc, etc, etc
9. I don't want more credit, I want the same amount of credit from you, or even less, I just want another Slate

The reason I was going so hard after Slate is because I wanted to flip it to Freedom to finish the tri-fecta.

Interestingly enough, I applied for Slate, Freedom, and Ink on the same day. Ink got approved with my social security, Freedom application did not even make it through, somehow, Slate was rejected.

I think one of the main reasons why these guys would not budge is because I have three pending applications for IHG, BA, Ritz that they probably saw in the system as they were talking to me......

Crap

 

[SOC 787]

Next time you are at a Dunkin Donuts or any other food establishment that sells cheap items I challenge you to walk out with an item for free. This is by no means an original idea, in fact it's called an option close. Walk up to the cashier, and place an order for a donut. Then fumble around and "realize" you forgot your wallet. Next say "I'm sorry I totally forgot my wallet but I'm still a bit hungry. If you were to give me a donut for free, would it be vanilla or chocolate?" After they pick one say "thank you I'll take that then" and then turn around and take a step away. 9/10 times they will give you the donut. Make sure to buy some stuff from them next time you are there so you aren't just being an ass.

The same types of thinking apply to this hobby. It's good to practice these sorts of things regularly though.

 

[fpguy]

This is perfect. I actually saw him live at one of the sets from a vacation I just got back from in Florida haha

 

[Hexaplorer]

from general datapoints/consensus on FT... obv the recon supervisor didnt indulge my specific Qs... but there seems to be a wall.

so anyways, about my Q - how exactly do you go past that? if you have more than 6 inqs on the CB they pull how do you go about handling that recon call when all they say is 'we cant approve you, cause we have a proprietary formula we use to access new accts' ... part of which is the # of inqs that is acceptable to em.

do you just HUCA and plead your case to anyone willing to listen and someone who'd overturn? they made it sound like they cant even manually override the 'computer decision' ... not sure how much faith I have in that. but Citi is Citi. so any tips would help!

This is absolutely not a steadfast rule. I have 4 cards with Citi and the first card was the only one I got when I still had less than 6 inquiries in 6 months. Citi card #2 was autoapproved with 9 inquiries, #3 autoapproved with 13 inquiries, and #4 autoapproved with 17 inquiries. I started my adventure into the churning hobby in September 2015, my last group of cards was approved the beginning of February- 28 cards in 8 months. I had no previous banking relationship with Citibank and before September no previous CC relationship either.

EDIT: I meant no previous CC relationship with Citi prior to September (not that I didn't have CCs at all before then).

 

[SOC 787]

This is absolutely not a steadfast rule. I have 4 cards with Citi and the first card was the only one I got when I still had less than 6 inquiries in 6 months. Citi card #2 was autoapproved with 9 inquiries, #3 autoapproved with 13 inquiries, and #4 autoapproved with 17 inquiries. I started my adventure into the churning hobby in September 2015, my last group of cards was approved the beginning of February- 28 cards in 8 months. I had no previous banking relationship with Citibank and before September no previous CC relationship either.

wow... what are you putting down for income, like a million $$? unblvable that yer getting approved for so much and so often w/a thin credit file.

 

[Hexaplorer]

wow... what are you putting down for income, like a million $$? unblvable that yer getting approved for so much and so often w/a thin credit file.

I never said I had a thin file, just that I didn't get into the CC hobby until last September. Even with those accounts my AAoA is still 3 years. And no, I'm putting down my proper income which is nowhere near a million dollars.

 

[Walmero]

Decided to go for another ink based on all this 5/24 soon-to-be-speculation. Approved for way larger CL than original ink w no recon and Plenty of recent non chase apps. Perhaps the private client angle does help (we are always recruited when talking to bankers in branch).

 

[italdesign]

The story is beyond awesome. I personally hate bargaining so won't be doing it a lot, but for the few times I really want something this will be very handy. Most of the time though I'll just go for the lower hanging fruit: other cards that will be instantly approved

 

[Matt]

Just saw a few reports on Twitter from @MarkD and others that they've been approved for new cards...

Seems like the 'rule' might not be as much of a rule as people thought.

 

[PillanSmye]

8. I need alot of different credit cards for legitimate reasons: keeping expenses separate, maximizing credit card portfolio to earn back value, SPG for stays with SPG hotels, Ink for business, AA Advantage for American Flights, Southwest personal for personal Southwest flights, Southwest business for business Southwest flights, Hyatt for Hyatt stays, etc, etc, etc

IME, Underwriters/CSR's are less than impressed by your rewards strategy.

I always strive to make them believe that xxx card is going to be the main spender either personally or for the entity in question.

I also never use the collaborative approach. I go straight NLP. "I need you to consider xxx", "I need you to understand xxx".

 

[AnyNameYouWish]

I'm reading posts where people get instant approval while being over 5/24. Are people here having that experience or are these approvals done through recon?

We just got into this travel thing in January. Reading about the Chase limits has us putting considerable thought into which cards we apply for. I can't even wrap my head around 28 cards in 8 months. I'm not knocking it by any means, great job! I just don't see how I can ramp up what I'm doing to even a 1/4 of that and yes, I'm jealous.

I've gotten 3 cards since January. Hubby has gotten 2. We don't carry a balance, my score is >800, haven't bothered to check hubby's score because both cards he has gotten have given 20k+ credit lines.

I just get the feeling that trying for more Chase cards would be pushing it, and I hesitate to apply for other cards in case it closes my options with chase. I feel stuck.

 

[SOC 787]

not sure which type of cards you're refrencing @Matt & @AnyNameYouWish - but I just got approved for a Chase, co-brand. not instant and didnt call for recon. but turnaround time was very very quick. got the approval email the very next day instead of waiting like 3-4 wks.

also got my highest CL yet. not only with Chase but with any FI ever iirc.

 

[AnyNameYouWish]

I got my southwest business from chase about 2 weeks ago. I applied on Feb 20th, so about 3 weeks. Maybe I have to take note of exactly what cards people are getting auto approval on past 5/24. I'd love an Ink, and a Marriott, IHG, and Freedom.

 

[Matt S NYC]

I just applied for Hyatt on 3/15 and today the automated system switched from "no further information" to "your application is under review." Compare this to a family member who applied at the same time and the new automated message said "approved." Is it time for me to bite the bullet and call recon prior to April?

 

[Belisarius]

I just applied for Hyatt on 3/15 and today the automated system switched from "no further information" to "your application is under review." Compare this to a family member who applied at the same time and the new automated message said "approved." Is it time for me to bite the bullet and call recon prior to April?

Many people will advise to let the process play out, citing tales of cruel CSRs grilling people endlessly. Still haven't encountered it and I'm on my 8th Chase card (3 biz, 5 personal). Just grabbed 3 on the same day a few weeks ago.

Most of those stories are more indicative of the storyteller than anything else, right? They were unable to articulate adequate answers to such brutal, unexpected questions as: So why do you need this third business credit card? What's your income? Why have you opened 20 cards in the last two years? Who could have predicted such tricky questions!?!?

I'm impatient and pretty confident in my phone skills, so I just call in and end the suspense.

I think your answer is probably found in an honest appraisal of your own comfort in dealing with this part of the game.

 

[Zooter]

I didn't think the 5/24 was in effect yet for all products, just pending. That's what I thought was the explanation behind the fact that I had 7 new cards in the last 24 months (excluding AUs I've gotten from my wife's accounts) and then was still approved for 2 more by Chase in late Feb.

Both apps went into pending upon submission (same day, 15 min apart). A few weeks later I got a welcome package with a new Ritz Carlton card. No email notice, just a complete surprise by mail.

A week after that, 3.5 weeks post-application, I got a rejection letter from Chase for the Hyatt card. "Too many requests for credit or opened accounts with us." I called them up and asked if I could be approved by taking credit from one of my existing Chase cards. The rep said sure and moved over $10k from one of my Freedom cards.

So that brings me to 4 Chase personal cards in addition to my 3 Ink Plus cards (originally I had an Ink Plus and Ink Bold, each in MC and in Visa, but since closed one and the rest all became Ink Plus Visa).

(BTW, anyone know how long it takes to get the Ritz Carlton free nights after completing the min spend?)

 

[italdesign]

Many people will advise to let the process play out, citing tales of cruel CSRs grilling people endlessly. Still haven't encountered it and I'm on my 8th Chase card (3 biz, 5 personal). Just grabbed 3 on the same day a few weeks ago.

Most of those stories are more indicative of the storyteller than anything else, right? They were unable to articulate adequate answers to such brutal, unexpected questions as: So why do you need this third business credit card? What's your income? Why have you opened 20 cards in the last two years? Who could have predicted such tricky questions!?!?

I'm impatient and pretty confident in my phone skills, so I just call in and end the suspense.

I think your answer is probably found in an honest appraisal of your own comfort in dealing with this part of the game.

Are you available for hire or marriage?

 

[Matt S NYC]

Many people will advise to let the process play out, citing tales of cruel CSRs grilling people endlessly. Still haven't encountered it and I'm on my 8th Chase card (3 biz, 5 personal). Just grabbed 3 on the same day a few weeks ago.

Most of those stories are more indicative of the storyteller than anything else, right? They were unable to articulate adequate answers to such brutal, unexpected questions as: So why do you need this third business credit card? What's your income? Why have you opened 20 cards in the last two years? Who could have predicted such tricky questions!?!?

I'm impatient and pretty confident in my phone skills, so I just call in and end the suspense.

I think your answer is probably found in an honest appraisal of your own comfort in dealing with this part of the game.

Thanks. Decided to call today and indeed the application had been denied. I managed to get them to re-open and approve it by getting rid of my BA card which I was going to cancel next month anyways.

 

[GettingReady]

Thanks. Decided to call today and indeed the application had been denied. I managed to get them to re-open and approve it by getting rid of my BA card which I was going to cancel next month anyways.

Hey, Matt, wanna call recon on hubs CSP? Good chance to practice and hone your skills.

 

[Cytraveler]

My own recent apps don't point to 5/24 for Ink or co-branded cards. I'm new to the game in Jan.: got a CSP then and Citi business AA, AU on my husband's Citi AA. Applied for Ink+ in early Feb. for a small writing business, denied, couldn't get approved on recon. Late Feb. applied and got Ink Cash (and a SPG business) for larger business and Southwest Plus.

Then in March, when 5/24 was supposed to start for business, I applied for Southwest Premier, turned down but got it after a couple recon calls explaining why I NEEDED 2 Southwest cards. Tried again on Ink+, turned down. Called recon. twice earlier this week. No mention of 5/24. Problem was I had gotten 4 new Chase cards in 2 months, and she also said the business was too small (revenue of $4,500). On the next day, talked to 2 CSRs; they were both very nice, didn't have a problem with size of business, said everything I said about why I had new cards made perfect sense, but that I had 4 new Chase cards too fast together to get a 5th. I think in my case it probably hurt that I hadn't been applying much before (though I did have a couple other new cards a year ago), then all of a sudden in January-Feb I've got new Chase and other hard pulls. They said after things had settled and there was more history with the new accounts that I could try again. I decided after the second level of analyst to just throw in the towel on the Ink+ for now and hope that 5/24 doesn't ever completely kick in for business and to try later.

But the takeaway is that I never heard even a hint about 5/24, as late as 3/29 on Ink.

 

[italdesign]

I think in my case it probably hurt that I hadn't been applying much before (though I did have a couple other new cards a year ago), then all of a sudden in January-Feb I've got new Chase and other hard pulls.

Anyone would have major trouble getting that many Chase cards in that time frame. Not impossible, but very hard.

 

[ctbarron]

Applied for the UA Biz card at the end of March. Got pending, never called, and got the denial letter a few weeks later. Too many new cards, too much credit were the reasons.

Finally got around to calling recon and was successful. I did have to move CL from my Ink, but so be it. I had 10 inquiries in the past 24 months, 3 in the last ~90 days.

FWIW I applied for a second Ink back in Feb and was denied (same reasons) and was not successful on recon.

 

[Cytraveler]

I just got a Chase IHG on 4/29 (applied 4/26). I'm definitely over 5/24, so 5/24 on co-brands hasn't hit yet. Here's to hoping it never does.

 

[druiddation]

I'm well over 5/24 and rec'd an instant approval tonight for Chase United card.

 

[Suzie]

Applied for Hyatt beginning of April just got denial letter. Called recon - 27 minutes later - approved!

Data point - have gotten 20 new cards in past 24 months, 6 of which were Chase - this makes #7.

 

[Suzie]

Another data point - husband applied for BA in April. Called recon on Saturday offering to shift credit line and got a resounding NO. The CSR even read off a list to him of all the cards he had opened recently (including non Chase).

HUCA - called again last night. Offered again to shift credit line and was told "sure, no problem." Go figure.

This is #6 Chase in 24. 19 in 24 total cards.

 

[italdesign]

Another data point - husband applied for BA in April. Called recon on Saturday offering to shift credit line and got a resounding NO. The CSR even read off a list to him of all the cards he had opened recently (including non Chase).

HUCA - called again last night. Offered again to shift credit line and was told "sure, no problem." Go figure.

This is #6 Chase in 24. 19 in 24 total cards.

About a year ago they started recording notes and can see you called before. Wonder if they still do that.

 

[Matt]

About a year ago they started recording notes and can see you called before. Wonder if they still do that.

They can see all accounts, distinct from a recorded conversation.

 

[Suzie]

About a year ago they started recording notes and can see you called before. Wonder if they still do that.

I don't know. This is the first time we've HUCA'd. The second recon call was quick and done. It's online today, so it went through. I had to pester my husband to HUCA because he was so uncomfortable with the outcome of the first call. But it worked.

 

[Benjamin]

I don't think the 5/24 rule has anything to do with churning. It's all about risk exposure. If they wanted to stop churning, they'd just go to 1 bonus/product/lifetime a la AMEX

Definitely agree. Any thoughts on why more cards have not gone to a renewing award? For example, Club Carlson Card offering more points at card renewal, or all the Chase hotel cards offering another night. Seems like that would make sense.