We're going solar!

[Matt]

It's something that we have wanted to do for a long time, and now we have a house rather than an Apt we are going to install a Solar panel system.

I reviewed the pro's and cons today and built my findings into an Infographic - would be keen to hear your thoughts on solar power and its value - is it something that you would do?

 

[mrsjon01]

When we lived in Florida, we went solar to heat our pool and our hot water. Ours was purchased and installed on the roof, a common application in FL. I really don't know what our overall savings was, but we had the house for about 5 more years. It was seamless and we never had any problems with the equipment or its output.

 

[Maria Sangria]

Here in Colorado I know people who have solar panels and they "sell" a portion of the energy back to the power company. So they get a small credit on their bill.

 

[MkMooney]

OT but @Matt how'd you make that awesome infographic?

 

[Matt]

Here in Colorado I know people who have solar panels and they "sell" a portion of the energy back to the power company. So they get a small credit on their bill.

Yep, that applies everywhere there is an overage- in this example with at 5kw system I estimated a $216 inflow from this.

 

[Matt]

OT but @Matt how'd you make that awesome infographic?

I used piktochart and a lot of blood, sweat and tears.

 

[madage]

The infographic looks awesome! I don't quite understand the ROI section, though. I know it's intended to be pretty basic, but what does the 8,000 kW/hrs mean? Are you assuming an annual energy usage of 8,000 kW-hrs? Kilowatt-hours are not usually denoted kW/hr because it's a unit of energy, not a rate of use. kWh would be a better unit abbreviation.

 

[Matt]

The infographic looks awesome! I don't quite understand the ROI section, though. I know it's intended to be pretty basic, but what does the 8,000 kW/hrs mean? Are you assuming an annual energy usage of 8,000 kW-hrs? Kilowatt-hours are not usually denoted kW/hr because it's a unit of energy, not a rate of use. kWh would be a better unit abbreviation.

Thanks for the correction on that, i'll see if I can get it swapped out.

The message I was trying to give is that a 5kw could potentially spin off 8000 kWh per year, which we might use 6200 and the balance of 1800 would be sold back to the grid. The numbers were pretty hard to track down for estimate purposes but I ended up using a chart from nrel that suggested about 1700 per kW of array for my region.

 

[sriki]

I don't remember where but I saw a portal offering miles for some sort of solar installations

 

[Matt]

I don't remember where but I saw a portal offering miles for some sort of solar installations

I did look (of course!) but I didn't see anything immediately... when it comes to purchase time I'll certainly be looking more seriously

 

[Dangjr213]

I did look (of course!) but I didn't see anything immediately... when it comes to purchase time I'll certainly be looking more seriously

Please post if you find one

 

[Mel]

On the water panel comments, they don't pan out this far north. I used an estimate out of Wisconsin that was available online and they never turned a profit for the estimated life of the panel.

Our panels have a 25 year warranty and we have a 20 year interconnect agreement with our utility. Our panels are sized just to the needs of our home as my state does not allow profit checks for overproduction. We have a 3KW array - 12 panels. It's on our attached garage roof. You need to have a fresh roof when you put on the panels. Otherwise, the array will need to be removed from the roof when it needs to be reshingled. We just happened to have had a tree hit the roof the year before and that side had been reroofed already.

The other important item is to minimize the power usage in the home. Use energy efficient appliances, a programmable thermostat, turn off lights, unplug at least the computers, nintendo, etc when not in use. Honestly, though we aren't very conscious of them. No maintenance - other than when a squirrel builds a nest under them and they need to be rewired.....

We have a website which tells us what each panel is generating. Each panel has its own inverter which reported through our wireless to the Enphase website on production. If you are interested, I can send you a link to our array privately. Although there are many visible on the Enphase website including ones local to your area for comparison.

 

[Matt]

Thanks Mel, that would be great!

A lot of my calculations were estimates because we haven't moved into the home yet, so I couldn't gauge our usage or needs... we would hopefully be able to live there on regular electric for a little while first so we could figure that out - but again there is seasonality to consider.

 

[thorax]

Yep, that applies everywhere there is an overage- in this example with at 5kw system I estimated a $216 inflow from this.

Do they pay you the retail or wholesale rate?

 

[SC Trojan]

Does anyone have experience with solar on an investment property? I own one in Vegas, which would be perfect from a sun perspective. What I'd really like to do is just sell all the energy back to the grid to eliminate the hassle of dealing with the tenant, but I don't think that's possible.

 

[MilesAbound]

For those interested here is a very detailed account of a solar installation in NC by a guy who lives literally a mile up the road from me. Lots of detail on the process, costs, benefits etc. I have looked seriously at this and my conclusion is I am going to wait until my next house and build it in from the get-go rather the more expensive retro-fit:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/raleigh-durham-chapel-hill-cary/1672803-raleigh-residential-solar-photovoltaic-pv-decision.html

 

[Matt]

For those interested here is a very detailed account of a solar installation in NC by a guy who lives literally a mile up the road from me. Lots of detail on the process, costs, benefits etc. I have looked seriously at this and my conclusion is I am going to wait until my next house and build it in from the get-go rather the more expensive retro-fit:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/raleigh-durham-chapel-hill-cary/1672803-raleigh-residential-solar-photovoltaic-pv-decision.html

Good info thanks, makes me think I was over estimating my kw production on a 5kw array. Don't forget that the 30% subsidy is going away in 2016, which might impact your timing decisions.

 

[MilesAbound]

Good info thanks, makes me think I was over estimating my kw production on a 5kw array. Don't forget that the 30% subsidy is going away in 2016, which might impact your timing decisions.

Yep I am aware of that... but I am looking at a bigger project that would include spray foam insulation, high efficiency HVAC units and geothermal power as well. So much better to do in a new home. 2015 is a good target date

 

[Matt]

Yep I am aware of that... but I am looking at a bigger project that would include spray foam insulation, high efficiency HVAC units and geothermal power as well. So much better to do in a new home. 2015 is a good target date

Yeah, I'm about to go through all that the new pad isn't fully winterized so I have to get it up to par. I'm thinking to start up a new sub forum here on DIY (and not DIY) stuff just for it...

 

[ColtonDunl]

It's something that we have wanted to do for a long time, and now we have a house rather than an Apt we are going to install solar kits system.

I reviewed the pro's and cons today and built my findings into an Infographic - would be keen to hear your thoughts on solar power and its value - is it something that you would do?

View attachment 248

I think you have made the right choice.. Even I am trying to go solar for long time and will do it very soon..

 

[Panache]

I'd like to chip in a bit more to the forum, and here is something I've been ruminating about: You probably have seen various reports in the media that have mentioned that solar electricity is becoming cheaper than grid energy in many places; with a 30% federal tax credit and some local incentives, that seems plausible.

So it's nice to save the environment and all, but saving money is even better. Here is what I came up with for my situation in VA (no state rebates unlike other states):

Cost of electricity: $136/month (mean of 1187 kWh/mo over 4 years, with a %RSD of 47% as fluctuations from summer to winter are big). Per some installers, I'd need a 10 kWh system to cover my consumption. The system is tied into the grid with a net metering system so that power fed into the system counts as a credit to me during the day/summer. The goal is to offset the solar generation with consumption to have a "net" bill of $0.

Cost of 10 kW solar system $25,000
Less 30% tax rebate $17,500

Annual "savings" $135/month x 12 months = $1620

Add annual incentives from utility at ~$40/MWh = $640, total "savings" =$2420

So not even counting accumulated interest, this should take about 7 years to repay itself.

The big question is opportunity cost so the question is whether cleverly investing $17,500 will make me come ahead or not. One has to then take into account electric inflation (which will probably (?)) remain low, that said my yearly average electric cost cents/kWh has increased by 4% from 2011-2014, with the biggest jump last year, so buy going solar, I'm effectively locking in today's rates for the next 30 years (anticipated lifetime of system, has 25 yr warranty). There also is the appreciation (how much?) of the home value should I decide to sell early.

Here the cash flow estimator from one bid (a high one).



So, on a quick back of the envelope calculation, unless I make a screaming investment elsewhere, this seems to be a good deal?

Please poke holes in my reasoning, or if you have experience, chime in! Thanks!

 

[Matt]

We'd love to go solar - especially after finding out that our electric bill was running at $600+ during the last few months... but will have to wait a little longer as we are still considering building a second level on our house.

I think the real value add of Solar at this time is the incentives will vanish, when they do you can claim that the value of the system is full retail in terms of an asset, I think that would add a lot to the home value, though some people do dare to disagree with that.

 

[Sesq]

I think the property value "appreciation" is way too high. No buyer is going to value a $17k purchase at $40k. I don't get the $132k number at all. $1600 a year times 20 years is $32k. Perhaps the system lasts longer than 20 years, or electricity prices increase, but $32k to $132k is suspect.

That doesn't make it a bad deal, but it doesn't make it a no brainer either. The questions are what else could you do with the money, and how will the price/efficiency/incentives change in the future.

 

[PurpleSquirrel]

I think the real value add of Solar at this time is the incentives will vanish, when they do you can claim that the value of the system is full retail in terms of an asset, I think that would add a lot to the home value, though some people do dare to disagree with that.

When the incentives expire, you'd see the cost of panels reduce by 30% magically.... I doubt anybody would pay full price.

 

[Matt]

When the incentives expire, you'd see the cost of panels reduce by 30% magically.... I doubt anybody would pay full price.

I hope you are right, as we aren't sure that we want to tackle all this right now..

 

[Mtshastajane]

I am interested to hear if you are still pursuing solar, or have "shelved" it. In California, the state and federal incentives are pretty good--especially in view of the inexorable upward march of power costs through Pacific Power.

I put in a 12kw system in 2012 which used the Enphase microinverters on each panel. I loved the system, and when I had to (unexpectedly) sell the house a year and a half later, the solar array prominently featured in the list of things the buyer found attractive.

Sadly, my new house is a lovely shady place inhospitable to solar panels. I still have a lot of the information if you are interested. However, based on your fabulous Infographic, it looks like you've acquired all the information you need. Good luck.

 

[thorax]

I wonder how long it will be before power companies begin lobbying to stop solar. Power plants are billion dollar investments, and as solar grows, they will be less and less useful.

 

[Matt]

I am interested to hear if you are still pursuing solar, or have "shelved" it. In California, the state and federal incentives are pretty good--especially in view of the inexorable upward march of power costs through Pacific Power.

I put in a 12kw system in 2012 which used the Enphase microinverters on each panel. I loved the system, and when I had to (unexpectedly) sell the house a year and a half later, the solar array prominently featured in the list of things the buyer found attractive.

Sadly, my new house is a lovely shady place inhospitable to solar panels. I still have a lot of the information if you are interested. However, based on your fabulous Infographic, it looks like you've acquired all the information you need. Good luck.

I shelved it for now, we've not quite figured out how to build an extension yet, we may go up, or to the side, and don't want to install then bring it down. We're in a shady place also, and on a lake which doesn't help... it may not be viable in the end, but we will look at it again after we figure out what to do with the property.

What I did learn from my first winter here is that some of the 'estimates' go to crap in a new house... our worse electric bill was over $1000...

 

[Paul]

Solar is a scam. Absent the ridiculous government subsidies, nobody in their right mind would install residential solar. Barely makes economic sense on an industrial scale, and only because the Chinese dump panels into the market.

Most people would be FAR better off if they spent a fraction of the money on better insulation/weatherproofing and effecient appliances. But of course, bragging about your new high effeciency HVAC unit isn't nearly as interesting as plopping a gawdawful looking solar system on your roof...

 

[Panache]

I did join a co-op and we're getting solar installed on the house as I write. With the tax rebates (and as noted earlier, big oil and coal get subsidies too so it's either everyone or no one imo) and the electric inflation, I've done NPV calculations like Matt did above and here in VA without many state incentives that'd mean a breakeven time of about 9 years. Not as good as some other states, but probably better than some investments I've made.

I spoke with Realtors and as MsShastaJane pointed out, the resale value for Solar is great, you can easily recoup 100% of the investment (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/22/realestate/solar-panels-and-home-values.html) vs. 70-80% at best for granite countertops or the insulation in the walls that people can't see (not trying to downplay it, the solar installer made a point to not oversize our system so that we can do some improvements in that regard which are, indeed, more cost effective). So, instead of sinking $18 K into a kitchen remodel, it's solar for us. I'm sure others will prefer a pool or the granite countertops or the hot tub but dollar for dollar that seemed to be the best way to add value to the house, and enjoy nearly free electric and heat for many years.

 

[DL172]

Solar is a scam. Absent the ridiculous government subsidies, nobody in their right mind would install residential solar. Barely makes economic sense on an industrial scale, and only because the Chinese dump panels into the market.

Most people would be FAR better off if they spent a fraction of the money on better insulation/weatherproofing and effecient appliances. But of course, bragging about your new high effeciency HVAC unit isn't nearly as interesting as plopping a gawdawful looking solar system on your roof...

We should thank the Chinese taxpayers. Unfortunately, our government doesn't like taking advantage of the generosity of other country's taxpayers. Our government does like promoting products we taxpayers subsidize = boeing.

I do agree residential solar is not in the best interest for society, mainly because it is much more efficient for a utility to build them up and by economics of scale pass on savings to the general public.

@Matt I like the direction you are moving in. How did you make the infographic btw?

 

[Andres]

Paul, that is a very big generalization. You have to run your own economic analysis & reach your own conclusion. It's like saying that renting is a scam. There's places in the US where it is better to rent than to own, and vice versa. I'm comfortable with a break even period of up to 10 years.

Over here, the cost of electricity is very high (25cents per kW-hr, and most likely going higher), and the infrastructure is in bad. I lose power at least once a week. Having solar means having independence of the utility company. That has value too, even though you can't put a price in it.

 

[DL172]

Paul, that is a very big generalization. You have to run your own economic analysis & reach your own conclusion. It's like saying that renting is a scam. There's places in the US where it is better to rent than to own, and vice versa. I'm comfortable with a break even period of up to 10 years.

Over here, the cost of electricity is very high (25cents per kW-hr, and most likely going higher), and the infrastructure is in bad. I lose power at least once a week. Having solar means having independence of the utility company. That has value too, even though you can't put a price in it.

I wouldn't argue against Paul in saying without subsidies Solar Power would be hard to justify as economically feasible. U.S. taxpayers are getting the short end of the stick when it comes to subsidies. I also am against the protectionist nature of the U.S. government. Let the Chinese government waste money flooding the world with cheap solar, it benefits all of us tremendously.

 

[thorax]

Solar is a scam. Absent the ridiculous government subsidies, nobody in their right mind would install residential solar. Barely makes economic sense on an industrial scale, and only because the Chinese dump panels into the market.

Most people would be FAR better off if they spent a fraction of the money on better insulation/weatherproofing and effecient appliances. But of course, bragging about your new high effeciency HVAC unit isn't nearly as interesting as plopping a gawdawful looking solar system on your roof...

To some people, its not only about getting cheaper electricity, but about being a good steward to the planet. Solar does both, at least for me. Last time I checked, it would be like a 7-10 year payoff where I live.

 

[Matt]

@Matt I like the direction you are moving in. How did you make the infographic btw?

I used Piktochart, to be frank, a lot of time and effort to build them so took a breather from making more.