The Golden Rule of Points and Miles

Matt

Administrator
Staff member


If there is one thing I could share with anyone interested in points and miles, from novice to ‘expert’ it is this: valuation is subjective.

The moment you buy into other people’s BS about value you lose all sense of reality, and this will snowball into making more and more bad decisions where points and miles are involved. The BS starts from the sales and marketing teams of the underlying programs. It is perpetuated by people who are mindless followers, or people who are savvy credit card sales people.

Scenario


You are told that Etihad First Class from NY to the Middle East retails at $20,000. You collect 150K pts that can be redeemed at 1 cent each for a value of $1500, or that flight. You are considered daft to redeem for less than the flight. But.. what if the sales and marketing guys changed the cost of the flight to $1500? Would you run out and redeem 1:1 for the flight, or would you fly only when you needed to, and otherwise use the points elsewhere?

The flight is the same – it gets you from origin to destination, it does so with a certain amount of comfort, nothing has changed other than the perception of value perpetuated by the BS.

Here’s how many mistakes I’ve seen on this in the past week:


It’s simple math: Earn miles at about one to two cents per mile. Spend them at two to three cents per mile. A mile is worth slightly more than two cents…if you are breaking the piggy bank. [Randy Petersen, Huff Post]



getting the flights and hotels for ~6% of their retail cost [Noah, MoneyMetagame]




In the U.S., an i3 costs around $45,000. So redeeming 11 million miles for one amounts to getting .4 cents (four tenths of a cent) in value for each of those 11 million miles. You’d get much better value redeeming those miles for flights on Lufthansa, or on one of its many airline partners.[Freequentflier]

All three of these savvy guys are allowing the sales and marketing BS to impact their valuation. In the case of Noah I can see the excitement behind showing that retail price, I’ve done it myself. However, the only way to value a mile or point is the impact that it has on your own bottom line.

Another example is Frequent Miler just launched a hotel’s credit card value page. He lists the Hyatt card as the best value credit card with a valuation of $596.

Let’s pretend..


A bumbling beginner is offered the chance to pick a credit card. They can take the Chase Sapphire Preferred with 40K pts, or the Hyatt card with 2 nights. Confused, they ask you what it is ‘worth’ and you cite ‘well the shiny silver Hyatt card is worth $596, and the shiny blue CSP is worth ‘at least’ $400 in Amazon Gift Cards. What should they pick?

  • If the beginner is an independently wealthy Hyatt Diamond because they spend 100 nights a year vacationing at Hyatts, then I’d say the Hyatt card.. because it really would lift a sum of money from their expenses, perhaps even more than $596.
  • If the beginner is an average guy, who has a mortgage, maybe some debt, perhaps a kid or a dog… then $400 would probably do more for their well being than anything else.
Now, what about the shelter need of the hotel? Well, certainly, the guy with an extra $400 in cash still needs a hotel for 2 nights.. kinda.. if there was a real need for a room for those nights vs being pressured to cash in the vouchers before they expire in 12 months that is. But even then, it comes down to the spread for what they would (and should) spend for a room, and the $400.

In their defense


Noah mentions that he wouldn’t necessarily use the rack rate when comparing value for his trip, but that hotels for NY are expensive regardless, and Greg’s list is only hotels right now…. But for the hotel list, I can’t see how it can ever be more than that, because if you had another list of ‘cash like’ cards you couldn’t really cite the 40kers like the Arrival, Venture, CSP as being worth ‘around $400’ and have them below the Hyatt card… it makes no sense.

Tim (FF) who talks about the BMW i3 I disagree with. If I read his post correctly he is saying that using the 11M miles for flights is a savvier decision, because the ‘value per point’ is higher. Personally, I’m not too familiar with the luftwaffe award chart, but if we make it simple and pretend again.. let’s say a RT from here to Nova Scotia is 100K OR $10,000…

  • 11M = 110 flights at 10K per flight for a ‘value’ of $1,100,000 >>> over 1M USD!!!
  • Whereas a car is $45K
Much smarter to fly from NY to Nova Scotia 110 times right? Or, would that just be plain stupid, and mean you still need to buy a car?

Again, it’s down to the individual. If you needed to make that flight 110 times, it makes a lot of sense, but if you need a car and don’t really need to make that journey quite so many times.. then the smarter choice is the car, even at a fraction of the ‘value’.

Stepped up lifestyle


Let’s nod the hat at the value found in stepping up your lifestyle for similar costs. There is real value in being able to experience things beyond your pay grade, and life is to be lived. That said, when making a choice between option A and option B, it is worth remembering that the ‘price’ you use for valuation is being set by sales and marketing guys to make you think it is worth something. Keep yourself grounded by comparing the value between the price they propose is market rate, and what you’d really pay.

If you lose sight of true value and buy into the BS, you’ll start making a lot of poor financial decisions.


The post The Golden Rule of Points and Miles appeared first on Saverocity Travel.

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smittytabb

Moderator
Staff member
The problem with any kind of valuation of points or miles, especially for aspirational redemptions is that both hotels and airlines essentially have "surge pricing". Not an econ major but married one and gave birth to two, so I can speak from my only limited authority. But, if demand outstrips supply, prices tend to go up. That throws the whole valuation thing out the window.

To give you an example of this, I have the Hyatt credit card and get a category 1-4 certificate each year. So does my husband. Last year we used them back to back at the Grand Hyatt in Istanbul, which is a classic aspirational type redemption. This year I used mine at the Hyatt Regency SFO Airport. Now that doesn't sound like a very good value. It's not even a category 4. But here is the deal. I had an AA flight change that forced me to spend a night at SFO I had not intended. It just so happened it was during some huge Silicon Valley conference. The cheapest room I could find in the entire Bay Area was $800. Then I remembered my Hyatt free night certificate. Called Hyatt and bingo, got a free room. So the free room at SFO was actually a better "value" than the room in IST.

If you buy into some artificial valuation, you will also forget to be creative and remember that these miles, points and free certificates are only of value in the way that you see fit. No one else has your unique set of circumstances. Your best use is the best use.
 

cdancer20

Level 2 Member
To give you an example of this, I have the Hyatt credit card and get a category 1-4 certificate each year. So does my husband. Last year we used them back to back at the Grand Hyatt in Istanbul, which is a classic aspirational type redemption. This year I used mine at the Hyatt Regency SFO Airport. Now that doesn't sound like a very good value. It's not even a category 4. But here is the deal. I had an AA flight change that forced me to spend a night at SFO I had not intended. It just so happened it was during some huge Silicon Valley conference. The cheapest room I could find in the entire Bay Area was $800. Then I remembered my Hyatt free night certificate. Called Hyatt and bingo, got a free room. So the free room at SFO was actually a better "value" than the room in IST.
Definitely a good example! I had a similar situation last month but nowhere close to your extreme. SO and I wanted to go to a couple of back to back football games at his alma mater. It's a small college town and almst all hotels are 2.5 star and under. However, due to the demand of rooms there, even the cheaper hotels tend to be $150+. So it was last minute and we needed a room. I realized that I could transfer MR to Choice Points. Not necessarily the best redemption I know. But I was able to transfer 8k points for each weekend and then pay $15-$60 extra. (Points and cash.) These rooms were going for $180-$260/night. And I realized that I can get 8k points back for only $63 + time/gas at Simon's Mall. Therefore, we came out ahead and "paid" over $100 less than the actual price of the room.
 

SanDiego1K

Level 2 Member
Surge pricing is an excellent time to use points. My husband attends the biggest worldwide farm show in a tiny California town once a year. John Deere buys out the Hampton Inn. International Harvester buys out another hotel. And so on. No hotel is available locally. If a room was, it would be $500 plus per night with a 4 night minimum. The past three years, I've been able to use our Hilton Diamond benefit and book a room using 20K points. He needs 3 nights, so that's 60K points. He's thrilled to be local and I'm thrilled he's not paying over $2K for the privilege.
 

smittytabb

Moderator
Staff member
Yeah, the college town where my youngest went to school had a Courtyard Marriott that was extremely expensive on certain weekends that coincided with football games and other events. But the Marriott 1-5 Certificate was used more than once at that property. I will miss being able to use it there as pretty much everywhere else I ever used them has gone up being over a Category 5. Those certificates used to be a huge value. The properties all inflated and the certificates didn't. Get it together Marriott!
 

parkcyde

New Member
As a novice to Saverocity, specifically and points-and-miles, generally, this may be an elementary perspective but here goes: I could not agree more that "the best use of points is your best use." Like many I'm sure, the carrot that lured my into this hobby was the promise of (nearly) free travel. As a recent college graduate (and father of two), having an opportunity to again travel with my wife/family, transcending the budgetary constraints we had been contending with, seemed like it was too good to be true. But as I've corrected my budget/credit as a means of qualifying for the VeryBestCards, I had a personal awakening that I could leverage my newly repaired credit -- and appreciation for savings and budgeting -- into earning percentage points back on my spending. The change in perspective was both gradual and seemingly sudden, but as it stands today, the thought of accelerating debt payments (student loans, housing, etc) is much more enticing and rewarding that jetting to the Maldives. In short, I feel that I'm monetizing the perceived freedom I can purchase with cash back cards which is coming out ahead of the valuation I place on (aspirational) redemptions I never really wanted until sold by the main points/miles players. Offering an example of financial discipline is (currently!) a greater gift I can provide my family than a few days in paradise.


Or at least this is what I'm telling myself until the next New England winter hits :)
 

SanDiego1K

Level 2 Member
...as it stands today, the thought of accelerating debt payments (student loans, housing, etc) is much more enticing and rewarding that jetting to the Maldives. In short, I feel that I'm monetizing the perceived freedom I can purchase with cash back cards which is coming out ahead of the valuation I place on (aspirational) redemptions I never really wanted until sold by the main points/miles players. Offering an example of financial discipline is (currently!) a greater gift I can provide my family than a few days in paradise.
I hope you can hear my applause all the way from San Diego. Living a debt free life is highly satisfying and very freeing. I always know that travel is discretionary. We focused early in our adult life on establishing our financial foundation. We did modest travel that increased as our foundation grew stronger. I was horrified when I first met those deeply in this hobby who were chasing Starwood platinum status requiring 25 completely discretionary stays a year at age 25 on modest income with no (perceived by me) worth. It's enticing when those around you are flying F on aspirational carriers and staying in suites in luxury hotels. I get it. But people can destroy their lives financially if they haven't taken care of basics first. Kudos to you for this breakthru in your thinking.
 
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italdesign

Level 2 Member
@smittytabb, or you could get that $800 room and file a claim with CSP/Hyatt/Ritz CC that you used to purchase the ticket (those cards cover award tickets). Now 800 sounds a bit excessive but prove the situation and I think they have to accept it. Then you can have another aspirational stay with that cat4 cert :)
 

italdesign

Level 2 Member
You are told that Etihad First Class from NY to the Middle East retails at $20,000. You collect 150K pts that can be redeemed at 1 cent each for a value of $1500, or that flight. You are considered daft to redeem for less than the flight. But.. what if the sales and marketing guys changed the cost of the flight to $1500?
They won't. Even if they did, it would be for 5 seconds with 0.1 seats only.

But let's say they went crazy and did that. If that's the flight I really want, I'll still redeem the miles, provided I earned it dirt cheap.

If acquisition cost is, say, 0.1 CPM, I'm happy to redeem it for 1 CPM. Or 10 CPM. Or probably even 0.5 CPM, if I lacked cash.

Hey, I believe your presentation last yr influenced my thinking!

The thing I need to weight more now is hours spent per mile. 0.1 CPM sounds like a great acquisition cost, but if the time spent to acquire it was 50 hours per 10k miles, not so great.
 

smittytabb

Moderator
Staff member
@smittytabb, or you could get that $800 room and file a claim with CSP/Hyatt/Ritz CC that you used to purchase the ticket (those cards cover award tickets). Now 800 sounds a bit excessive but prove the situation and I think they have to accept it. Then you can have another aspirational stay with that cat4 cert :)
Not sure I understand what you are suggesting here. Do what?
 

smittytabb

Moderator
Staff member
Use CCs that cover trip delay/interruption. Then when it happens, pay for what you need and get reimbursed. Save those certs for real vacations.
No, it wasn't like that. I had a schedule change and AA let me change my itinerary with a stopover. It was my choice, so essentially not irrops.
 
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