Are immigrants more likely to play 'the game'?

[Matt]

I've been thinking about this since we ran the Mile Madness tournament last year, and wonder what you folk think. Does travel hacking and MS lend itself towards immigrants?

Some reasons that I think it might:

• Immigrants travel more (at the broadest level they have at least left their home land!)
• Immigrants have more family outside of the US, so more of a need to travel.
• Immigrants (IMO) can carry a strong work ethic, due to the desire to achieve the 'American Dream'.

 

[sriki]

Interesting thread (for me at least)

I very much agree with 1 & 2 & they are self-explanatory. Having said that, what got me into travel hacking was not traveling to see family but a desire to spend good time with the wife. away from the daily life and not having enough money to do so even after trying for 3 years. But, I can see why travel hacking would seem a really great option for people that have families in other countries.

However, I am not sure what #3 is about. I do not agree with it factually and also don't see how it applies to travel hacking even if it were true. Work ethic shouldn't be confused with working more for less.

 

[Matt]

However, I am not sure what #3 is about. I do not agree with it factually and also don't see how it applies to travel hacking even if it were true. Work ethic shouldn't be confused with working more for less.

It is a personal belief that first gen immigrants work harder than later generations as they are hungry to embrace opportunities. Some may come as economic migrants, and some may just appreciate the opportunities here more.

I also see parents of second generations being very pushy into education/high achieving kids.

At some point though, I think a generation starts getting slack and relying on parental wealth.

So.. .in terms of work ethic that's where I'm coming from, all opinion and observation based.

How that ties into the Hacking/MS stuff.. well it may seem 'an easier solution' but it takes a considerable amount of time to get good at, and the goal is betterment. So I see it as hard work ethic to improve situation (despite actual transactions perhaps being 'easy money')

 

[smittytabb]

I think this is a really interesting question/hypothesis and I wonder how the numbers will play out in our informal sample.

 

[SanDiego1K]

I think it's a worthy hypothesis. I also think there can be a strong work ethic for those of us who are children of parents who lived thru the Great Depression. My mother saved wrapping paper, aluminum foil (yes, seriously), and had a string ball to which string was tied and added. I've weaned myself away from those cost saving measures, but I have a great need to be very mindful of money. And that's what this game is about.

 

[MarkD]

Sorry - a bit off topic but semi-related to Mile Madness...

What happened to the Miles Professor? It seems she is no longer blogging. Did MM do her in or is she just taking a sabbatical and enjoying all of her miles and points she accumulated?

 

[MickiSue]

Interesting theory. I know that one of the two primary areas I'm looking at for RE investing is a strongly immigrant, lower middle class neighborhood in St. Paul. Inexpensive, beautifully maintained small houses.

I could have answered the question either choice two or three. My dad came from England at the age of 6, my mom's mom from Ireland at the age of 9.

I'm planning to get dual citizenship with the UK, actually. It will make it a lot easier to spend 9 months of the year in Italy with a UK passport.

 

[Yeshu]

After reading comments from Grant's blog, I am convinced that moving to the Bay Area is bad for MSing...or for any deals...The huge techie crowd there (read: my Indian compatriots) makes it difficult to MS or find a slickdeal, apparently...

The weather is tempting, though!

 

[TheAmericanTravelProject]

I think that 'immigrants' is too broad of a generalization, but I am interested in the hypothesis. As a social worker, many of my clients are immigrants (mostly undocumented), and they are some of the hardest workers I have ever come across. However, they are mostly working so hard to put food on the table that travel itself is often an unattainable goal. I can't even imagine a single one of them venturing into the travel hacking/Man Spend world. But I don't think I am envisioning the same demographic that you are with the original post.

 

[Matt]

I think that 'immigrants' is too broad of a generalization, but I am interested in the hypothesis. As a social worker, many of my clients are immigrants (mostly undocumented), and they are some of the hardest workers I have ever come across. However, they are mostly working so hard to put food on the table that travel itself is often an unattainable goal. I can't even imagine a single one of them venturing into the travel hacking/Man Spend world. But I don't think I am envisioning the same demographic that you are with the original post.

I'm looking at it from the number of people who play the game, how highly represented are immigrants? From the answers, although limited it seems quite a high number?

The original Do in CLT had a similar representation IMO, many of the speakers were born overseas too...

 

[MickiSue]

Also, immigrants who are undocumented are an entirely different group than those who are documented. They tend to be more highly educated and from a higher social stratum in their home countries.

 

[TheAmericanTravelProject]

So, not are immigrants more likely to play the game, but are more people who play the game likely to be immigrants?

 

[Matt]

So, not are immigrants more likely to play the game, but are more people who play the game likely to be immigrants?

If you are a guy, that is exactly the same thing.

 

[TheAmericanTravelProject]

If you are a guy, that is exactly the same thing.

Hahahaha! Whew...good thing I'm not a guy

 

[NickPFD]

I'm third generation, but married to an immigrant. Getting reduced-cost trips to and from her home country is certainly a motivating factor for me.

 

[PWMTrav]

I'm second generation (parents from Italy). My parents' generation can barely be convinced banking is a good idea, so they're not in this game. Of my 2nd generation relatives, I'm the only one I know that MS'es or otherwise travels on awards - but I'd also say I'm by far the most finance-savvy. Most of my friends are many generations American, so I don't have much else to compare against.

I do think that the immigrant and subsequent generation work harder. Especially the immigrants. Growing up there were very few examples of lazy in our family and social circles. Unfortunately, I can be called difficult to motivate sometimes - mostly a procrastinator.

 

[PWMTrav]

Interesting theory. I know that one of the two primary areas I'm looking at for RE investing is a strongly immigrant, lower middle class neighborhood in St. Paul. Inexpensive, beautifully maintained small houses.

I could have answered the question either choice two or three. My dad came from England at the age of 6, my mom's mom from Ireland at the age of 9.

I'm planning to get dual citizenship with the UK, actually. It will make it a lot easier to spend 9 months of the year in Italy with a UK passport.

Do I recall correctly that your husband is an Italian citizen? You should look into Italian citizenship based on your marriage. By chance, were you married before 1983?

 

[BoonDR]

I am the very definition of a mutt, I needed ancestry.com to find out what the national origin of my last name was. My mothers maternal heritage traces back to the Mayflower and my father's grandmother was Cherokee. The last immigrant in my lineage came from Scotland in 1843. I simply identify myself as "American" because the strongest specific genetic influence I have is Native American. With all that said, I can see where this "game" can be particularly attractive to an immigrant populace. Having worked with many immigrants, I agree with Matt's statement that a strong work ethic is more likely to be present in a immigrant populace. Certainly that is an anecdotal based opinion, but it is one I hold.

I think this "game" requires a certain work ethic to pull off. The majority of the detractors I encounter use the "that's too much work" excuse to explain their lack of desire to partake.

 

[Matt]

I am the very definition of a mutt, I needed ancestry.com to find out what the national origin of my last name was. My mothers maternal heritage traces back to the Mayflower and my father's grandmother was Cherokee. The last immigrant in my lineage came from Scotland in 1843. I simply identify myself as "American" because I the strongest specific genetic influence I have is Native American. With all that said, I can see where this "game" can be particularly attractive to an immigrant populace. Having worked with many immigrants I agree with Matt's statement that a strong work ethic is more likely to be present in a immigrant populace. Certainly that is an anecdotal based opinion, but it is one I hold.

I think this "game" requires a certain work ethic to pull off. The majority of the detractors I encounter use the "that's too much work" excuse to explain their lack of desire to partake.

Always thought of you as a mutt.

 

[Maria Sangria]

Interesting... while I tend to agree that immigrants that worked to earn their way into this country to own a business or part of free enterprise work harder, I'm not so sure they'd be more inclined to MS. I think it has more to do with drive, and problem-solving. A bit ago I was actually thinking the type of people into MS like to solve puzzles, problems and riddles. Or maybe criminals, but they have creative minds.

This game is always changing.

 

[Matt]

Interesting... while I tend to agree that immigrants that worked to earn their way into this country to own a business or part of free enterprise work harder, I'm not so sure they'd be more inclined to MS. I think it has more to do with drive, and problem-solving. A bit ago I was actually thinking the type of people into MS like to solve puzzles, problems and riddles. Or maybe criminals, but they have creative minds.

This game is always changing.

I think that Kirsten probably explained it better than I did upthread. To be more specific I just see a great representation when compared to the overall demographic percentages - EG there are I guess 14M greencard holders in the US out of 320M people, yet about 50% of the people answering this informal poll are first gen so likely GC/H2b or naturalized (still likely less than 1% of the nation).

 

[kampung]

I can surely relate to this thread. With my wife and i being the only ones from our family that reside in the US, for me its definitely a big Yes for point 1 & 2 but not sure about point 3 (i presume i'm no more hardworking than others though i am definitely a sucker for deals!).

My main goal is be able to take the family (thats 4 tickets) back to Asia hopefully annually and to get my mom to visit us. She dreads the 25+ hour flight (thats her excuse for delaying her visit) so i'm saving to get a biz class ticket, which hopefully will convince her over.

When talking to my friends about this game, i find that my immigrant friends seem to be more interested to learn and play compared to my American friends. Could be due to point 1&2 or could be just that the former are more Deal Elastic!..

 

[f0xx]

It's too late. However I'll write what I know.

I used to work at Staples. This is before I knew what Stapling and MS'ing was.
However now that I know what both are... I'll tell you that it was always Asian or South Asian (India, Pakistan etc.) getting in on these "deals".

Rang out a dude that did $4k in gift cards. Told me it was for his "business". Asian.
The dudes that always came in looking for those Slickdeals? Asian or South Asian. Always super rude too when told we didn't have something but some inventory checker online said we did.

Another thing? They traveled quite a bit to get in on these deals. Some were from the next state over (~120mi)

However I started finding out about these "slickdeals" and started keeping them to myself. Sucks to suck.

Anyways. That's my take on it.

I wouldn't use the word "immigrant" though. Asian or South Asian? Yes.
I guess it comes to the culture? Penny pinching. Getting the best bang for buck. Trying to get the lowest price possible. etc etc.

The same goes with my Middle Eastern buddies. Will always haggle and try to get the lowest price.

 

[taxicabnumber]

I'd agree with most of the observations in this thread -- especially those on pennypinching/cheapness/immigrants from Asia.

Second-generation myself, and my dad actually got into MSing before I did (although now I do far more than he does, with a greater variety of methods -- he has it easy living in South Florida vs. the Bay Area I guess!). His reason is pretty straightforward -- my parents go back to India once a year and eventually my dad decided it was time to stop doing it in Y. He didn't grow up with a lot of money, so now even though he's "made it" he's still way too cheap to pay outright for J (his clothes still mostly come from Wal-Mart!); but he wants the comfort of it. Hence credit cards and MS. A lot of Indian MSers I've talked to (in line at WM, parents' friends, etc.) seem to think this way -- it's a way to get 2-4 tickets to go visit the homeland in comfort, without paying the sticker price. Plus friends and family would ridicule them if they actually paid for J

I do it for sort of different reasons -- was in a coast-to-coast long distance relationship for a year (was because she's thankfully now joined me on the Best Coast!), and there's only so many transcons one can fund with a PhD student's stipend. Figured this was a way to fund that...then one thing led to another and next thing you know I'm hooked, and dragging her around the world in EK F and SQ suites for a few hundred dollars out of pocket in GC fees . Fundamentally, though, it's the thrill of getting a good deal/being somewhere that I have no business being.

On another note, @Yeshu , tons of Indian and Chinese MSers in the Bay Area. Before the Mountain View WM cracked down on GCs, you shoulda seen the demographics in those Money Center lines...(and compared it to the rest of the shoppers in that WM!)

 

[Haley]

I think it is just overlap in personality traits that accounts for it.

I think even this poll is going to self select, immigrants being more likely to look at it.

 

[Fuerza]

I just found this thread. I live in a high immigration area, SW TX. I think the demographics play a part in this hobby. Many of the immigrants here can go back across the boarder to Mexico when ever they please. They really don't have a reason to MS.

 

[f0xx]

I just found this thread. I live in a high immigration area, SW TX. I think the demographics play a part in this hobby. Many of the immigrants here can go back across the boarder to Mexico when ever they please. They really don't have a reason to MS.

I think the immigrants we are talking about are ones from Asia/S. Asia

 

[Matt]

I think the immigrants we are talking about are ones from Asia/S. Asia

Not at all. CLT DO presenters:

First Generation

• Russian (MP)
• Welsh (MA)
• English (Me)

So out of that small group we had 3 immigrants. I think there might have been more and I forget now... but at least a very unusual proportion.

 

[f0xx]

Not at all. CLT DO presenters:

First Generation

• Russian (MP)
• Welsh (MA)
• English (Me)

So out of that small group we had 3 immigrants. I think there might have been more and I forget now... but at least a very unusual proportion.

And the people that attended the DO?

 

[Matt]

And the people that attended the DO?

I didn't ask where they were born so don't know.

 

[ElainePDX]

I completely agree that the question should be, as @TheAmericanTravelProject wrote: "...are more people who play the game likely to be immigrants?" The answer from this third gen is: Yes.

I attended a NY points meetup this summer and my husband still jokes about watching three Jewish women explaining the game to three Asian men, all of whom were younger than them!

Even here in "white bread Oregon" the points meetups include many more people from different ethnicities than other social venues in which I find myself.

True story: my sociology prof husband once asked a class how many people belonged to any type of ethnic organization. Quite a few students didn't even understand what that was; one volunteered he was a Costco member. It is getting better, but OR is not a very diverse place.