What is it with the Internet and Drama? Get a grip people! I am too busy trying to enjoy the few hours of sleep I can get and perfecting a 9 second diaper change for this bollocks.
“Hark! What drama?” I hear you cry.
Well yesterday a blogger ‘outed’ the biggest kept secrets in Manufactured Spending for one! I get it, its annoying but are you really surprised? Comments are flying around, people are attacking and defending – people are throwing in inaccurate information, some to look clever when they are far from it, others perhaps to obfuscate. Then you get the people trying to correct them… just let it go. Then today I get my pal George throwing in that he is ready to cancel his #DO tickets in November because one of the speakers there wrote about Mall cards today in order to promote credit card sales.
Hunters and Farmers
In sales, we had Hunters and Farmers. The hunter mindset would go after the biggest accounts and focus on closing them, burn and turn. The farmers would be more relationship focused and seek to draw smaller, but more consistent revenue streams over time from their accounts, like farmers growing crops.
The same is true of ‘the game’, some folk will want to keep things under the radar in order to farm them for personal use, but then others will go hunting. When it comes to the really big blogs, it does come across like they just shot a baby lion for a Facebook picture, and of course offends- but don’t make that you are surprised by this. It’s what hunters do.
The Peasants are Revolting!
The funny thing with the hunters is that they are more likely to feed the scraps to the peasants – the people too uninformed to know better. These guys love it when hunters shoot down a beautiful animal, and feed off it. Then they are surprised when after a very short period of time there is no more meat. That’s the problem with shooting down something like AP as happened yesterday. Here is when you see comments from folk defending the hunter, because without them they would starve.
Intent Matters most
Hunting to eat is different from hunting for profit. That’s the blogger angle. If you find a cute baby panda (like GC) and shoot it, then sell it in exchange for money (credit card apps) then you are making a statement. The statement is that you rate money over the game.
But that’s OK.
What isn’t OK is all the bloody drama about this. We clearly have two types of person out there, the ones that would kill for a credit card commission, and those that would kill the killers! Let’s remember that we are all just people trying to figure out life. I know for sure that many of the people who are outraged at the hunters behavior do things in their own jobs that they should be pretty ashamed of, but you do what you gotta do to make a buck right?
So don’t be alarmed or surprised when people do things to harm your hobby in order to increase clicks and conversions, they aren’t playing by your rules. And more importantly, don’t say or do anything online that you wouldn’t do to their faces. I have seen way too many snarky comments on twitter or in the posts themselves, and it is unnecessary.
What am I?
People ask me where I fit into the equation. Hunter, or Farmer? Frankly, I started out blogging with a view to make money from it. A glance to the right will show that I still offer credit cards too, which is a weird dichotomy that I haven’t quite figured out yet.
I posted things that were probably best not posted, and as I did I met a few good people who were farming these gigs for the enjoyment of their own families and friends. I saw beyond the drama and mean comments, and realized that good people were suffering from me posting deals for the peasants, and so I stopped.
Now, I am trying to turn the work I did in building up the popularity of this site into something more positive for the community, but I don’t need the drama that comes with it. I spend too much time hearing one side or the other hearing how they aren’t understood, so I’d ask you all to respect your fellow man.
- For Hunters, know that you started out in this game for the love of it, and you can cause harm to people who respect you by killing the big game. Don’t hide from the fact that you are part of the problem.
- For Farmers, respect that hunters need to eat, and that they are people too. It’s like a Democrat yelling at a Tea Party candidate that they are wrong and dumb – you won’t get any results from it. Make intelligent and respectful points.
- For the internet arseholes that take really no side but just like to pour fuel on the fire and just be douchebags to others via twitter or in comments- try to get out more and deal with real people, and consider your internet presence an extension of your actual presence.
I don’t really know where I fit anymore, but I know I don’t want to be a poster boy for the Farmers. Especially if that means I am supposed to leap into witch hunts when someone does something ‘wrong’. Personally, I am trying to move all talk of Manufactured Spend and anything remotely ‘grey’ in the life hacking world over to the Forum. That way we can hopefully build a strong community of people who can eat well. But on top of that, i’d be happy to move away from these areas altogether and get involved more in the bigger picture of sorting out life. Travel is just a tiny component of that, albeit a very powerful one when done right.
The end is nigh
They say it is always darkest before the dawn. It is my belief that the end is nigh for Credit Card applications, they are on a death spiral. Too many people are being advised to get into credit cards and as such find themselves in consumer debt (not the bloggers problem I know..) and the regulatory boards are already starting to sniff around. In the final days you will get to see the true character of bloggers. Will they push hard to get the applications in before the doors close? What bridges will they burn to do so? But don’t attack them for their choices, we have all made choices that put ourselves first at times.
Remember, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. When I posted a Lifemiles trick on here I wouldn’t pull it down for the arseholes, but I did pull it down when someone was respectful and asked me to understand their position. So if you see something that offends you, try to raise your argument, drop the drama, and show some respect. If that doesn’t work, just remember that some people are credit card sales people, and your opinion doesn’t matter to them.
W/r/t to the point “calm down, George,” the end has always been nigh. This template was posted long ago:
http://millionmilesecrets.com/2014/04/22/simon-mall-visa-gift-card/
But yes, not all malls work, per the FT thread.
Blogger behavior is directly influenced by comments. You are a case in point. You changed your outlook when people posted about being good stewards.
So the vitriol and negative comments were/are a much needed wake-up to the pimps and are always welcome and should be encouraged, not disparaged. When a guy like VFTW posts with his 40K subscribers (with many mainstream media as subscribers), he does orders of magnitude more damage than small blogs.
But big or small is no excuse to out deals/methods that cannot withstand an avalanche of usage – like MilesProfessor’s post on malls today, especially when it’s just to pimp and be shills for CC companies. Those sort of people need to be ostracized and criticized because it’s calculated $cumbaggery for the sake of a few $hekels.
If the pimps want to “help” then rather than give circles and arrows (with affiliate links liberally included), why not point subscribers to relevant FT threads and let those so inclined to spend a bit of time to figure it out for themselves? That way only the motivated will learn and the vast majority will remain willfully ignorant as they surely do with everything else in their life. Teach a man to fish….
True, but also when people were being big blue meanies to me it would annoy me more than anything, and not make me consider change. I’d get involved in the ego battle. I’m not saying not to object, but maybe smarter/nicer objections (yet still very clear in their purpose) would get through better?
I think if it is just short/rude then you just draw out their supporters, and they can hide from the real issue by focusing the debate on the angry folk- it lets them off the hook.
I do very much agree with teaching a man to fish. I think doing so weeds out the folk who would burn a gig, and also gives them the skills to deal with the many problems that will arise. A person who reads straight off a blog will treat the knowledge lightly, and with entitlement, and is much more likely to kill a deal to protect their minor loss than to work it out.
Everyone makes mistakes, that is understandable. One should be allowed to correct their course of action after a mistake. Those who obstinately and callously engage in behavior that is detrimental to the community for personal profit is something all together different.
Most (not all) credit card pimps do very little original research. Their skill isn’t in churning or MSing, in a lot of cases they are pretty poor at one or both. Their skill is in mining all the forums for the good stuff, aggregating it, and packaging it in circles and arrows. Without their information source their business withers and dies.
There will always be proxies/alts, but we need to take a page from traditional societies and shun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shunning) these people. If you are going to be harmful to the community then you are Persona Non Grata within this community.
While I am on my soapbox I would like to offer another metaphor similar to your hunter/farmer example. I view the churning world sort of as an episode of the walking dead. The circles and arrows crowd are like a horde of zombies, mindlessly shuffling along, shouting “Miiiiiiles”. They just bounce from deal to deal, whatever is offered to them by the circles and arrows crowd.
The rest of us need to always keep one step ahead, because like a horde of locusts, when they come to town they will eat everything in sight, and kill deals left and right. Since the demise of VR we are seeing this quite clearly, as they bounce from low hanging fruit to low hanging fruit, stressing and eventually breaking the system at every turn. It is the start of a death spiral.
Just like in nature, maybe we need a cull to strengthen the herd. Once most of the low hanging fruit is gone, or infosec is tightened up, a good portion of the horde will drop out. Many did once they figured out they could no longer load VR from the couch. Cries of “do I really have to enter *that* store?” were heard far and wide. This will continue to happen as deals prematurely die and more and more legwork has to be done for less and less rewards.
Who outed the biggest secrets of MS? Or was that a joke since there are very few
I dramatized it a bit 🙂 but in all seriousness yes, anything that gets spelled out too much does seriously risk the gig, because the readers are uneducated and don’t feel ownership of the gig itself.
Then educate the readers. What a load od $^#*.
Actually, I was about to, but I don’t need your drama here either Ron.
Hehehe what was the biggest MS trick? I was dealing with a lame contractor all day & didn’t have one chance to read up
I won’t say, that way it goes no further 🙂
THe Miles professor. she took it down. google cached it here; http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:wODO6wPJ5SMJ:themilesprofessor.com/2014/07/30/visa-mall-gift-card-500/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us
Actually the ‘big one’ wasn’t the Miles Professor. She did post one that had George upset though. However I have to wonder, if she has taken it down then I think that’s pretty decent of her, and don’t see the need to ‘call her out’ on it by posting a cache.
If someone is upset, but a break through is made, and find that people are receptive and adjust content accordingly they shouldn’t be punished after doing what seems to be ‘the right thing’.
Just my opinion on it.
We need full disclosure why it went down 🙂
Ok, not going to make my Ignore list now. Does anyone really care about my lists now, really?
I like it when things stay down, unless it involves my Amazon earnings balance lol.
Matt, I’ll be honest, I didn’t think that what got posted yesterday was at all a secret. I’m probably as shocked as anyone that there’s this much uproar over it. This is just my view, but –
Teaching people about MS isn’t that big of a deal. The guy posted about gift cards that a specific outlet will gladly sell to you, a specific store that will gladly process a transaction to sell you a slip of paper and some things that you might do with that slip of paper. If we’re down to any of that being “secret” then I think people are taking themselves a little too seriously. The difficulty in that has never been about knowing the process, it has been about executing it. There’s a lot of time and energy involved, plus a thick skin to stand there and swipe multiple pieces of plastic at a register in one of the dumpiest stores of the last century 🙂 THAT is still the challenge and someone writing about it isn’t going to bring it down.
If I can be even more contrarian on the matter, let me suggest this – the legal activity that we’re talking about being kept a secret is nearly identical to another activity often kept a secret because of its dubious ties – laundering. This particular documented process of MS is at least putting out in the open a legitimate pattern for legitimate, legal purposes that might otherwise only be seen as sketchy at best. A little publicity might not be a bad thing for “the game” that folks take so seriously.
Then again, I don’t really go anywhere near this stuff on my blog, so it might be easy for me to say. Actually, Target has a good deal on diapers that I think you might like, too 🙂
Teaching people how to MS is distinct from teaching them a singular ‘gig’ as it were. The former takes a bit more buy in from the new players, and means that they are less likely to treat it without respect.
I know, I know, but in this instance I’m just having a really hard time caring. I can’t really put my finger on it. I don’t necessarily agree with posting it, I’m just not feeling the outrage. Shit, we discussed mint coints out in the open on FWF for a long time before that dried up. Then it did, and we found new things to do. I’m slowly coming to the realization that I may very well care less about what I manufacture as much as I care about finding new avenues. That could be it. By the time this got written about by bloggers, it already wasn’t interesting to me – but still useful to those that are MS heavy hitters. With that, I do empathize.
I’m with you – that’s kinda the point of the post! I am saying that hey, shit happens, people do things, but lets try to keep a grasp on reality here and lets not forget that we are dealing with humans.
Personally it is no different if it is AP or XX that isn’t the point for me, I am just at saturation point on the whole werewolves vs vampire drama, and want folk to calm it down a bit.
That isn’t intended to belittle perspectives at all, (I say that as I can see that my comment may do just that and inflame) it is just to say that there are a lot of perspectives at play here, and we need to keep an eye on the bigger picture, beyond a MS trick or a credit card sale.
Matt, you are generalizing here, I am the kind of person no matter what the field who when given something is appreciative and treats the knowledge with respect. I am sure there are many like me out there as well as those who are unappreciative and abuse things.
So as far as the teach a man to fish analogy, I prefer my fish serve to be at a nice NYC restaurant 🙂
I am generalizing indeed, it’s a numbers game! I’m writing a follow up post…
I received a call from my local mall today because they need to fill out the question “What is the reason for your gift card purchases?” for audit purposes. Just fyi.
This is the 2nd blog post I read today, I am trying to stay away from all this blog drama as it is getting kind of ridiculous.
There are the business men and the hobbyists. Their interests are wildly assymetrical. I stand with the hobbyists and was actually born in a place known for its farmland so I will always stand with them.
I have a blog that reviews blogs. I also tweet about my feelings. I tell it like it is, No Barclays and Chase will look at it and then bug me about it or just take away my links. I understand many are out to make money, I am just not going to buy from them because I think they are too busy marketing/pumping to know wtf is going in this hobby anyway and there are much better bloggers out there who try to do it right and deserve the help.
The 1st blog post I read today was by Miles Professor and I am still traumatized by it. Expertly inserted the credit card links and the post had some wrong info. And this was only after just recently discovering the mall! And why is this blogger speaking at WestCoastDO where we are supposed to be all about stewardship and all that jazz? I never cared about the Paypal trick either, I despise that company with passion.
I would be okay with the post (I guess) if there was no credit card pumping and the warnings about the different malls was more emphasized so people would not get hurt. It is like MMS outing the Home Improvement deal and so many getting stuck with the cards!
Phuck Feedly, I am staying away from it. I need blog detox.
Don’t be a Tool, think! (I still chuckle about the Think!)
I just finished the best watermelon I have had this year! High Five!
There’s your problem, George. You read other blogs 🙂
Counting yours and not counting proofreading my own, I probably read about 5. I may just be ignorant to the extent of it. But I do agree with what I think your point is – it’s one thing to circle and arrow the deal, it’s another for 100 other bloggers to pile on and use the circles and arrows as a template to pimp their affiliate links. I don’t really care too much about the former, as I overly-articulated above, but I certainly find the latter distasteful.
Interestingly, the stewardship has emerged from #milemadness. It was never a part of it, but Frequent Miler and myself both wanted to run it in a way that looked after the game, and the players had the same concerns.
So, there is clearly a movement in that direction building, but it wasn’t the root of where we started, and I think as people ‘get on board’ or not, we will see some bumps in the road.
That ‘Think’ post got me into more hot water last week, but it ain’t coming down 🙂
I thought Marathon Man coined stewardship?
I could have lots of fun pimping the Barclay Arrival card. I am going to coin a new term when I finally do it: PIMPINGITGENTLY
I like it, I think it’s cute. THINK (about it)
I’m not claiming ownership of the name, I am sure it came from him (or at least not me!) I am just saying that it is an interesting, and good thing that emerged from the way we handled milemadness and again in the DO.
When we started out people thought we were going to blow it all up for clicks, but we instead pushed for ‘stewardship’
When MM and I talked about how he was going to convey his message at the CLT DO that we personally talked about 100’s of times on the phone we used the term Stewardship to describe the ideal method to teach, promote and continue these gigs. Maybe we were dreaming that more people would figure out what that meant or at least figure it out quicker than whats taking place. But I think everyone who shares a connection with other travelers in this mileage/points gig eventually sees the light, some faster than others.
Sigh. So much to do in life, and people choose to whine, complain and rend their hair about…MS?
There will always be ways to travel cheaper, to get better seats, better accomodations than one’s bank account might indicate.
I used to do it by traveling a crazy amount for my jobs. It meant, sometimes, showing up at 8:30 PM on a kid’s birthday. But it also meant that they could vacation in Tulum, with only Mom paying for a seat, because she got double miles, and their tickets were all free.
Something will go away because of overexposure. And, it IS important to let the people who throw open the big, wide doors know that they are letting in some who will ruin the something for others. But since when is anyone entitled to fly first class to Hong Kong, because they spent a little time running GC’s through their credit cards? It’s lovely if we can. But SUCH a first world issue, even, may I say, such a top 20% income group in the first world issue, to feel as though this thing has been stolen, when we didn’t own it in the first place.
@MickiSue – what you don’t realize is that MS for some IS their job AND livelihood. Many (probably most) of the tricks of the trade come directly from those in the trenches, NOT vice versa. So it is a significant problem when pimps out deals just to keep that affiliate CC income flowing. It’s despicable. And in the end, inherently self defeating as who is going to find the deals of the future? The pimps sitting on their lazy behinds or the guys in the trenches?
Friends NEVER let friends click on ANY affiliate link for ANY reason.
I assume, from the level of vitriol, that you are one of those who earns substantial money from MS. And I can see why you would be upset, if you believe that your income is being threatened. Even so, my point stands. MS is not a “business” with only one earning stream; it has many, many of them. And to maximize one’s earning in anything, as an entrepreneur, it’s best to maintain a presence in those many streams. If one dries up, it’s a lot easier to ramp up in another, rather than to start from scratch.
As it is, I see no problem, for example, with affiliate links. I have them for such inocuous places as VistaPrint, etc. I would not refer someone to a worse deal, in order to make money–and I know that there are bloggers out there who do. But if I send someone to a place where they can get what they want/need for less than elsewhere, explain the harm in me getting a small portion of their order? (Or, in the case of CC sign-ups, their application and the possibility of collecting interest for the CC bank?
Hard and fast rules should not be created for most situations. Because most situations contain a lot of gray, and very very little black and white. The Hippocratic Oath is nearly impossible to honor, for physicians and the rest of us; SOMEONE will be harmed by most actions. But harming the handful to help the many–eh, I’m good with that, as long as it doesn’t end up harming the many, as well.
You are correct that there are many possible profit centers in MS.
What you may not realize is the amount that are truly scalable is very small.
You make a good point that many, whether intentionally or not, neglect to realize. Most knowledge in this craft comes from the daily churners in the trenches. Not blogs, not casuals, not tourists. The guy putting in 3 hours a day on his daily grind is the first one(and one of the few able to) to see any nuanced changes to POS, csr training, products etc.
Up until recently those guys have been posting on FT or other public places, but that is quickly changing.
This is dangerous for the casual because they will not have access to all the latest info in regards to POS/policy.
Most blogs I’ve seen are pretty woefully behind when it comes to stuff like this. That could lead to some awkward/damaging situations.
@Paul, i agree with you about the guys in the trenches doing the work. I am in NYC and when trying to hustle say a CVS or any new information I will break Manhanntan up in zones and hoof it or train from one place to another until too tired.
I do not see your anger with calling people pimps who are taking advantage of a capitalistic market. Yes, i am annoyed as well when a good thing ends or is going to like TD to Go in September only taking their own CC to load. It sucks but we look for someting else. Bloggers serve the market so If their content is good their capital will rise.
Lots of us in the early/mid 90’s took advantage of the real estate market. We got in, fixed up units for higher rentals, the market exploded, we make a lot if money and either stayed in or got out. You could refinance over the phone without documentation. It was incredible! Now many people cannot afford to live in places in the Village, Park Slope etc where in the 70’s you could get an apartment for $125 a month and the 90’s still reasonable. Maybe, to the people who are having a harder time now buying or renting we are pimps sitting on our on our lazy asses and collecting high rents. I don’t begrudge how anyone feeds their family as long as it is legal.
Yes, I would like deals to go on and never die. I got into this game a few short years ago because of the mutitude of information being put out. I do not know if their is an answer to who should or how many should put out that information and then decide which of us can handle it in a responsible manner. Like the mortgage crisis economical meltdown. Many of us got easy mortgages from banks and were responsible with the money. I have friends who used their property as their personal piggy bank borrowing money on top money until they lost everything. They were not responsible and thought it would go on forever.
I am not here to upset or knock anyone but trying to understand a hobby that I truly enjoy and takes up hours of my day. I seem to be in the minority of not caring about the whole blogging/deal thing. I am begining to see as I read the anger and other comments from who I am sure are good people ( I like to thing this is true) that it is complicated. I need to network and meet more people in this game rather than do it in isolation and maybe in person they can give me other perspectives. Am I naive or am I right for just taking it as a fun hobby? I enjoy the self reflection as much as I do the discussion.
Just an aside to say that if you are the same “John” whose wife was in surgery, I hope she is doing well. Cheers, Elaine
@ Elaine, Thank you that is very gracious of you
John said: “Am I naive or am I right for just taking it as a fun hobby? I enjoy the self reflection as much as I do the discussion.”
I think that everyone’s circumstances are different. I believe that MM moved from a serious hobbyist to a full-time MSer when his work situation changed. Others supplement their regular employment, do it upon retiring, or find it is a way to contribute to the family income when they are suddenly home raising kids.
I started out thinking I would accumulate enough points to enable me to travel Bus class for the price of coach or less. I made all my initial minimum spends with regular expenses, in some cases accelerating payments for insurance, utilities, etc. After about 6 months of that, I got a Bluebird and began to buy VRs to make minimum spends. I now use a variety of other methods, just applied for a third BB, and no longer blanch at the idea of buying thousands of dollars of GCs at one time. But still haven’t ramped it up to huge levels. And forget traveling Bus class for the price of coach; I want to travel for “free” and I am willing, in most cases, to go coach if that means I can take more trips. I have found that I really like hotel points, because in general they’ve been a lot easy to use than airline miles, so “free” accommodations that come with upgrade possibilities have become more important to me.
Yesterday I passed a SW and “allowed” myself to just drive by. I “should” have investigated whether I could buy PPs there and could have made perhaps $80 in cash back if they did. But I was tired, it was 90 degrees and the parking lot was in full sun, and I just let the opportunity slide by. I prefer to do it this way so I don’t burn out entirely. I imagine that hardcore MSers or those who do make a living from it would not have made that choice – or may not make it as often as I do.
Just my two cents.
and share something useful.
lol – you didn’t like the bit about ‘stop being an arsehole’ I know, we all need our hobbies 🙂
So, my issue isn’t the hunter, a true hunter leverages all of the meat, uses the bones for tools, leaves nothing for waste. What TPG did was plain and simple equivalent to shooting a buffalo from a train car. Its not a secret, but he’s got a huge reader base. Will he kill it? I doubt it, but how many people will get their Amazon accounts shut down? I think many times, these big time folks don’t talk enough about the risk, and I think that is a shame, or a sham. Maybe both. Stewardship of the hobby is another thing entirely, but I have a distinct feeling that he is doing well enough not to really have a need to do what we do, however, I don’t know for sure. (Besides, he’d tell me I’m wrong anyway).
Yeah that’s true. When I first thought of this post I had 4 types 🙂 Farmers, Shepards, Hunters and those idiots who go on safari to kill beautiful animals for a quick facebook picture… when I condensed it that got squished up, but I agree.
Still, let’s find a way for positive improvement if we can.
If TPG did any MS in the past two years, I am Batman! Saw him in a social media picture today he was in some Art Gallery opening.
Anyways, my point was about full disclosure: I am anti hunting, anti guns. Because, I am a lover, not a fighter 🙂
I was at a County Fair today, we watched pig races, it was pretty epic! I did set 9 pins on the drive up…
I am new to this game – only 6 months, but after reading many blog posts, i am starting to slowly hate majority of the blogging community. They just blog for money and nothing else. They don’t care about society, fellow men and dont have any responsibility towards what they do and they can easily get away by pointing fingers at others. This is worse group than robbers. Even robbers have some rules and they all abide by those rules. Even animals go by some rules. Heck, this “travel” blog community is simply the worst i have seen, except for few exceptions. George is 100% right. He has the guts to state that this is not good stewardship and he is willing to cancel his trip as he doesn’t want to be identified with them. Why? Anything personal? Nope. He is standing by set of rules and he is not willing to let them go. This is true responsibility. This is true courage. I also like Matt but i think he should cancel the concerned speaker from the coming DO (till they show signs of true stewardship) if he respects the readers who trusts him to be a good steward. They all have paid money and invested their time hoping to be part of a good group. Not to listen to some credit card pumpers. If so, they would have gone to chicago. He has to rethink about the speaker list. I dont have any bias towards anyone. Just letting my thoughts out in a blog i trust. I know you have managed to stay away from the idiots out there. When is your next leap to glory, Matt?
Hey Kumar,
I hope you already know that I love your passion and the way you speak here on the blogs and forum. It feels right from the heart and I respect the hell out of it.
However, I won’t be changing speakers because I believe that it isn’t black and white. It is a case of people figuring out where they belong, and some are clearly bad, and some are good. Even within the pimping crowd there is a difference for me. My level of cardinal sin in this game is not just outing a deal, but it is promoting inferior links and then censoring comments intending to protect the consumer. I’m actually OK with inferior links too, its the deliberate attempts to betray a consumer and leach money from them that is my limit. I would extend that to not just blatant deleting/censoring of a comment but to manipulation of the perspectives with the INTENT to deceive. That opens up a wider net.
When I see that, people are dead to me.
But when I see a deal that has been exposed already, and a link thrown in there I don’t see that extreme, I see people trying to figure things out, and trying to understand where they are and where they want to be in the space. There are extreme perspectives, and George, as much as I love him, needs to be careful.
The problem he has now is that he has become this heroic figure to people like yourself (and to me too) in the travel pimping world, but if he has a pissy morning, he can call in on that credibility and it has impact.
While his point was valid today, his reaction was not as balanced as it should be. And while I can see it may be the sum of a series of actions, and the straw that broke the camels back, that doesn’t mean I agree, fully, with the sentiment here.
I think that MP has perhaps drifted a bit in the pimpy direction, but I also think that the topic raised today was old news, and there is a lot more that isn’t being put out there in order to convert, so it isn’t all about that. Also, and perhaps this is the most defining factor, I think she is as much a player of the game as a promoter of it. When that changes, perhaps we should reconsider, but for now, I am happy that she is a part of the next DO. And really, who am I to judge when I still haven’t hit delete on the links on my own site?
I’ll also add that I don’t need the drama (in case that wasn’t clear) and I’d rather not be involved with another DO than worry about people pointing fingers as to who should be in and out. At the end of the day, I think everyone that was involved in CLT was amazing, and I think PHX will be even better.
I’ll be there with the family, that’s the kind of honesty that I feel about PHX. And i’ll be there with the original team, and glad that they made CLT happen. There would have been no #milemadness Do without Phil, Inna and Greg. They did everything from come up with the idea, to backing me financially if it flopped.
Cheers,
Matt
+1.
If I remember correctly, Matt and MM tangled at first when MM worried that the #CharlotteDo would spill all the secrets in a way that would compromise the future of MS for us all. What came from that series of comments was MM decided to attend the DO, and the issue of good stewardship became part of the agenda. I was hopeful that George and The Miles Prof could come to a similar detente. I do think that Inna’s post, coming after TPG’s on AP, was perhaps the last straw for some in the community, and that the inclusion of affiliate links raises their ire even more. Inna took it down, and let’s all move on.
No one knows why a deal gets kill. I have to be honest and am tired of hearing people turn this game into an us and them mentality. Like high school there are the kool in group and everyone else. What I like to know is who is the gatekeeper of the “in group?” Which 10, 20, 100 people are part of the group that should have and determind what knowledge is to be shared and how it is to be shared? I am sure people have friends they talk/email great new MS infomation whitout telling them ” I don’t want to spoon-feed you.” My feeling is when the going is good you run it out, when the shit hits the fan, you appreciate the good times and you move on. Real men and women don’t whine nor take gruff from French Maitre D’s.
I think everyone who’s been around a while knows why deals get killed. I can only tell you that years ago before the population explosion that sharing info openly (at least on FT and such) wasnt a problem. However at some point in the last 10-15 yrs the population base of mileage collectors exploded to a level where any deal in the public space is bombarded with activity. That activity gets the attention of said company and a quick conversation with top brass will lead to a back and forth that sounds similar to this. IT guy tells bosses that volume in product X is thru the roof. Instead of excitement of increased sales its a panic to plug the hole. Deal dies. Its always been a volume thing. The difference is that 10 yrs ago there were 50-100 ppl doing it. Now there are 1,000’s hitting the same deal at the same time. Those deals cant withstand the weight of the group.
Were you in the “board room” actually participating the management meeting or you just guessing? There are many factors that cause the business decisions to be made. But the bottom line is someone is paying for those miles and points to be awarded. Whether there are 50-100 ppl or 1000s of ppl doesn’t matter. I work for accounting and financial analysis, I look at credit card transactions and fees charged by Visa/Mastercard with profitability stats all the time. It’s never as simple as you describe.
Sometimes your assumption that all the “freeloaders” rushing to take advantage of some loop-holes is to blame for the shut down of the deal is just purely speculative. There are real business risks than some low profit or zero profit margin sales. The biggest risk is always credit card fraud. When we paid you 1-5% so that you can feel wonderful, we end up losing the 100% for all the total loss due to fraud. Those tend to escalate to much bigger loss than freeloaders. Yes, when you have a lot of freeloaders, the 1-5% loss is exponentially increased, but it’s often compensated by much bigger user base.
So instead of keep bitching about all the things that may or may not actually matter, or self congratulating your own “stewardship”, you should thank that US of A is not Australia or many other western countries where reward credit cards are almost non-exist because tight financial regulations and consumer friendly laws basically render those reward unattractive.
Bottom line, you guys are taking these stuff way too seriously.
I think its uninformed to pretend that the amount of people in a deal doesnt affect it. There are too many instances to count here that prove that point. Could all deals just happen to be closed by the companies be coincidence? Maybe but experiencing this over a period of years leads me to other answers. I guess you take it seriously or too seriously depending on how much its worth to you. I happen to find the rewards large enough to get my attention and make me be serious about it. Also Ive never called fellow hobbyists “freeloaders” I think those are your words.
I’ve been struggling with this thought for the last 6 months or so. I’m only in the “game” as a hobby, not to make a living. And when I started almost exactly 2 years ago, I began with the likes of MMS, TPG, FTG etc. I find it hard to believe that anyone that started in this hobby in the past 2 years or so, did so without utilizing the information that is found on those blogs. So, now, do I look down on so-called newbies for reading those sites (which is what allows them to continue)?
I also struggle with defining my position in the hierarchy of MSers. I’m not talking volume, I’m talking about number of different avenues that I know of. In this specific debate, I’ve heard of the mall GCs previously (don’t remember where unfortunately) but I don’t live near a mall that will play the game with me so I’ve never utilized it. But does the fact that I knew about it mean I’m in the upper echelon of MSer’s? I doubt it. I kinda feel like, well if I know about it a bunch of other people probably know about it too. But it also irritates me that people are giving it even more exposure. And then at the same time, I feel irritated that I feel irritated about it because I remember that initially I had to learn it from somewhere too and why should I hate on someone spreading it to more people. I don’t think it’s fair to say that everyone needs to learn MS completely on there own. But where do we draw the line between sharing with people and sharing with too many people? Sorry, just wanted to vent a little bit (and I don’t have my own blog to do it on!).
I agree – another reason why I don’t hate MMS and TPG – they show good information, and they do start people off. They have businesses to run and I respect that, I just asked here in this post that people started realizing they were businesses (to Rons point here too) in their decisions, yet they are people behind it and let’s try to be adult about what is happening out there.
I don’t understand the vitriol. So someone blogged about mall GC and AP. I haven’t taken advantage of either, but both are old news. Hardly outing a big secret.
Besides, I read blogs for information, much as I read newspapers, magazines, etc. These entities are all businesses and their business is that of imparting information. I cannot fault them for that. Those who get angry about information given to the masses just come off as being very selfish.
Furthermore, what is “stewardship”? How does one demonstrate their worthiness to receive information and learn? Not everyone has the time or desire to attend a DO or sift through code on thousands of FT posts. Does that make them unworthy recipients not willing to put in the time to learn? Please…
Ron truer words never spoken! The Stewardships, I call them the Solomon’s of the miles/points game, sitting in judgement over the the masses. They decide who is in and who is out. What crumbs are push from thier table for the rest to scrounge over. A the funny thing is those bloggers what you to click on thier links etc so they can make a commission. I ask this question to all, would you help someone out make money who gave you information and saved you valuable time, or would you click on a bloggers who did not think you deserved the information, or sparses out in cryptic fashion? “Your Duty is to your King ( or wife in many cases) but each man’s soul is his own” Henry V
Woah there boys – this is a ‘please calm the drama and understand the different sides’ post – I don’t think comparing that to Solomon is fitting that bill!
My view is everyone should be in, but only if they show that they care about the gig enough to not screw it up for everyone else. I haven’t perfected how to do that, but I have brought a lot of people ‘into the game’ and I have only excluded one person, ever because they were totally over the top in demanding just all the techniques on day one.
The thing is, once you teach someone to fish they find more deals than you do anyway, so it is never that ‘stewards’ lord over this – you make more good stewards and they keep the game alive.
I am all for keeping the game alive. You and I am sure no one will prefect which idiots will screw things up, get too greedy and even destroy their credit in the process. As for the drama, I am having fun with it it all. I love the miles game and wish I knew more people in it. I am open to anyone who wants to impart their knowledge to me. That being said, I realize we are not curing cancer here, but suppose to be having fun with our hobbies. I am amuse and trying to keep relaxed as my wife is in surgery so this discussion on a number of blogs is making my day.
And it is important to remember perception is more important than reality. So when terms are used like stewards, guardians etc people might perceive it as being condescending. I am a psychologist before I was retired so I am always looking at the powerful meaning of words and their effect on others.
Well, if anyone is so outraged, that they don’t want to go to the west coast DO, I’ll gladly take your ticket off your hands 🙂
Yeah, that’s a hot ticket right there!
Well, I am totally confused by all the noise and drama on the blogs the past couple of days. I truly hope I missed something and this is not because of the post regarding the purchase of GC at malls, the post regarding AP or the post about loading BB at FD. FYI all you “experts” these were not “secrets” so calm down. I am no expert at MSing and I knew about these so called “secrets” so maybe they aren’t actually secrets at all.
I am glad that people put so much time into this hobby that they believe they are the only ones that know about it but, honestly, maybe they are putting in more time than necessary. Why keep hunting if you have more food than you can eat before it is spoiled?
I don’t understand why some blogs get flamed and others don’t. For example, FM talked about the GC purchases at malls just a couple of day ago and nothing. Not to mention, FM was the one that repeatedly mentioned fuel points at Kroger for several days in a row and never got flamed. I even asked him to please stop mentioning it in EVERY post. I mean I think we understand. Of course, it was shut down a couple of weeks after that even though I knew about it for months before that. He wasn’t flamed.
So, I am just curious on how everybody decides who is a “steward” and who isn’t and what is a “secret” and what isn’t?
I agree, I tried to address this in today’s post.
I knew, too, but keep in mind that many of the deals are unavailable in various parts of the country; no AP or Kroger’s here in the Upper Midwest.
If you live in SoCal, or NYC, it may APPEAR that there are thousands and thousands of MSers horning in on your great deal. But, in reality, the vast bulk of residents of the USA know nothing about MS. Of the handful who do, a great majority are sceptical of its legality/morality, and won’t do it. (How many of us have family we’ve tried to share this with, and gotten the “Are you sure?” response?) And of those who do participate, many do a little, in one or two venues, month after month. Only a tiny fraction are willing to put the time and effort into MSing on a large scale, day after day, month after month. Even WITH all the circles and arrows. There are ways to make a lot of money in any field of endeavor. But how many actually do so?
THAT, more than anything, is why I think people need to step back and look at the bigger picture. Deals are ruined more by those rare individuals who buy 10K of the same gift card, every day for a month, than by those who received circles and arrows.
ONE person with a flagged account, and very odd spending habits, is more likely, IMO, to raise red flags, whether at AMEX or WM, than 1500 buying one $500 GC to see if it really works, and then deciding they don’t want to get off the couch long enough to sustain it.
As an example what if someone is buying 5-10-20k a day in GCs from Store/Site X. And they’ve been doing it for 1,2 or 5 yrs and in that time the store/site has continued to sell GCs. But a story posts about this gig and 3 days later the deal is dead. Are you positive it was the high volume people that killed it?
During the recent dramas I know I was still out there MSing. Its not like life stops just cuz we all bicker.
This weekend I had some goober named Brad attacking my very existence in every way possible (everything from get a real job to his going crazy over my showing up everywhere online he visits) and on another front I had this debate with a known ft antagonist who convinced himself I am a cop like control freak who selfishly wants no one else to do MS.
But despite all this drama I still MSd and spent time with my family, which is what this is all about anyway.
Then I watched this and now I want to learn how to do it:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Nxe4WWGnPuc
No matter what line of work or hobby any of you all are in, I am sure we can all agree that it would be cavalier of any of us to assume that if something in that job or hobby were to die, there’d be another one to come along and replace it.
I have read all the posts here and agree with many. I tend to see those I do not agree with as having a couple unique traits:
-Very new and or low user of MS or who currently sees no value in it
-A blogger who would easily out MS deals if given the chance
-Someone who likes to entice issues just to get a rise.
-a pseudo ethicist
***
Either way we just cannot go around thinking that new things will come around if what we are doing were to die. That is so wrong in life! It would be like the following scenario:
Mother: oh please rescue worker, grab my child and pull him out of there before it collapses!
Rescue worker: Im trying uh oh ooops!
Mother: oh thats ok, I’ll have another child some day
****
Now yes, I KNOW that is an extreme and real life example and not to be compared to stupid credit card schemes, but the point is the same: we cant go round assuming there will be new deals and so its ok to kill the ones we have or let them die. And just because a deal has been talked about shouldn’t mean we all may as well talk about it more. We should do this less. It sorta reminds me of a riot where some charged up crowd is moving down the street towards the mayors office or something and they are passing this statue. No one seems to notice or bother the statue but once one person happens to throw an egg at it or something, now the crowd all attacks it and the next thing you know the statue lay in ruins.
Are we Darwinists who would argue that since the statue was in their path, it was up to it if it were to survive? Or are we just trying to create more casualties to see how far we can go before we have nothing left?
MS is like camping. You need to learn how to read a map, a compass, pitch a tent, trim a laden canoe, build a fire, etc. Do you really want to leave food scraps out at night so some big bear comes and rips you apart in your sleep?
I need the shot gun of MS.
For the record, MileageUpdate first used the term steward with a connection to ms during one of our many phone calls taking place months before the CLT DO.
Many may not agree that FM is a very good steward of ms since his blog has been argued to have outed a few deals that later died.
Also, “stewardship” by its own nature is not exclusive. So I was always confused by Matt’s title for his other post. Everyone should and could be a good steward. Ms needs it more than other entities and schema do because ms is different by nature too.
I wrote it with that title because people were interpreting your position (and therefore stewardship in general) to be something you were using to exclude.
By saying stewardship DOESN’T exclude I’d start a positional battle, by using the word SHOULDN’T I felt instead that people could be more open to receiving the message.
I think I gotcha
I cant figure out why people would even fathom stewardship or something I said as being exclusive. I guess we gotta walk people through the thinking process too.
Anyway here is one definition of the term:
Stewardship…
Stewardship means the management or care of something, particularly the kind that works. If your company is making money, there’s probably been careful stewardship — or, a lot of luck.