I recently shared my opinions on how bloggers can kill deals by trading tricks for clicks. There are many arguments out there about why publicizing deals are good and bad things- in one camp are people who don’t want any secrets shared because they fear the loopholes will close, on the other side people want to be part of the party.
The reality is that we don’t know for sure when sharing a deal will kill it, but here are three ways in which it can:
- The deal gets so widely publicized that the guy who owns Vanilla Reloads reads about the Office Depot 5x in the New York Times with his bagel and realizes this cannot go on.
- The number of people involved in a deal increases so much that the pipelines explode in terms of how much money is flowing through the system, leading to an internal process audit.
- A person who doesn’t know the rules of engagement is allowed to play the game, and kills it for everyone by calling in, and is willing to highlight a loophole in order to protect their transaction.
We can never control when a loophole will actually close, but we can influence it, and the logic behind it is intent. For the person in the third group, their intention is to put their own well being above that of the deal. IE they don’t care what the impact is of their action as long as they are made good by. Of course, they don’t want to kill the deal, but if that happens to occur it is simply ‘outside of their control’ because they simply had to look after number one.
Lifemiles is one of several programs that has loopholes that enter the black hat category of travel hacking. Without getting into too many details, you can get discounted tickets. Everyone who has ever booked one of these tickets knows it is an error and does it regardless. There is an ethical question here, and I am not judging the right or wrong of exploiting the hack.
However, if you go down that rabbit hole, you can’t rely on the same consumer protections to reimburse you if you are later denied boarding, because when you do this you are asking for an investigation to be opened, and it will show all of the loopholes, and expose all of the game, and this is the fastest way to create internal investigations that seal off loopholes.
If you do partake in something on the ‘dark side’ of travel sharing a negative experience is incredibly important to help the community take precautions, so let this post be a notice:
People who are ‘tricking’ Lifemiles, you may be denied boarding. A member of the community was denied boarding and is complaining to the DOT for compensation, so there is a much higher chance now that your tickets will have problems, and that soon the loopholes will be exposed. If you have tickets booked already have contingency plans in place (a store of other award miles to rebook if needed) and don’t follow suit because each complaint is a nail in the coffin for Lifemiles.
I will be continuing my series on ‘Finding, not Killing, the Next Big Thing’ shortly. It is intended to help you identify opportunities everywhere, it is imperative that if you want to ‘play the game’ you have to protect it too. This will mean that if you are in the middle of something massive like Lifemiles then you will have to eat the cost of that ticket, unless you are willing to ruin the entire deal for everyone, which is a serious statement to make.
In balance to this, I can understand that need to be compensated exists. I would propose that if you are playing with black hat stuff you create a slush fund for it, and make an agreement with yourself that if it gets confiscated or lost when you are doing something you know is wrong, that you let it go, it is part of the risk that comes with playing high stakes travel hacking.
Matt you speak wisely my friend…
“The deal gets so widely publicized that the guy who owns Vanilla Reloads reads about the Office Depot 5x in the New York Times with his bagel and realizes this cannot go on.”
———
So yeah, do remind me to talk at CLT about how back in like 2001 or 2 or whatever it was, I made the mistake of letting WSJ print my name in a piece along with other people about how one could use the AS card to get MOs at USPS and get miles from Bofa. Soon afterward, USPS would NO LONGER allow the purchase of MOs to give miles on AS and other mileage earning debit card swipes. Anyway, the running joke at the time was that the CEO of BofA was probably sitting on the throne reading the front page of the paper and saw this and ran out of there like George Costanza when he tried to get to the phone with his pants around his ankles. STOP!!
I will bring hot chocolate and marshmallows as we sit down by the fire and listen to your stories.
Notice how the word, “SMORES” has MS in it 😀
Isn’t CLT doing the exact same thing with over exposure?? I see a lot of the pimps heading to CLT to learn new tricks to expose – how long before they start over exposing tricks (just so they could earn a few measly shekels – if they kept their mouths shut and just users the tricks, they’d likely make more money and have a shred of self respect).
With demise of VRs we now have a zillion posts on AGC and ways to cash out. And a zillion posts on loading BB at WM. For F’s sake, why do pimps insist and repeating this so that even the most incompetent/lazy end up playing the game? And why does ANYONE click on a blogger link – you’re handing those pimps money for your good credit and exposing deals at the same time = LOSE LOSE.
Who do you consider a ‘pimp’ that is going to clt? The goal (my goal) to connect with people and start building networks to share ideas.
And I should add, I have blogger links, clicking on them doesn’t expose deals.
I can see what you mean but here’s a few things about DOs like CLT…
You meet the people in person so you hear gigs from them in groups or one to one so it tends to stay that way. It is not in print somewhere–or it sure shouldnt be.
Also for me, I dont plan to tell all my secrets there, but I will tell HOW to do things, just not what those things are. Get it? More the method less the specifics.
Don’t let Mr. Pickles in — he’s shown that he thinks what’s shared at a conference is fair game to share publicly. Or maybe that was just his justification for messing with BoardingArea, with whom he and F2B clearly have an axe to grind.
Paul, my thoughts exactly. Eh, what exactly was the point of the moron madness competition? And now seminars, lol.
Hey Tom,
The point of Milemadness was to have a bit of fun without blowing things up. I know you were not happy about it but if you look back at what we actually did and posted I think you will see that it wasn’t bad. What it did is drew together about 120 people who have a shared interest and we are going to meet in person in CLT.
The purpose of CLT is akin to Milemadness. We get to meet up and decide if we can work with a new group of people to innovate for this hobby and create strong personal relationships offline, rather than blogging about breaking deals.
I know this seems strange to you, but it is exactly what you and Paul are asking for – not breaking deals online for clicks, and instead helping each other to progress in the game.
I agree with this and I know I aint pimpin while Im in clt cuz mileageupdate doesnt make its money outing gigs
While I have never been a big fan of the blogger who filed the DOT complaint, I am not sure I understand all these reactions against him.
We have seen this happening many times over and over again. When some people get burnt by some of the hacking that we do and have to take action to protect their financial assets, they get called out for being the one guy who shouldn’t be playing the game and how he’s ruining things for everybody. We don’t know how much money is on the line for the other person, and how bad a position they would be in if they did not take such action. All we care about is that such a loophole might be closed and we can’t take advantage of it anymore. Even though most of us have been here long enough to know that deals will come and go. Yes, sometimes it does take a while for a big wave to come, but big waves always come in a vast ocean.
I’m not trying to pick on you and I am begging forgiveness in advance for using one of your FT post as an example to illustrate my point here. How is the blogger’s DOT complaint different from your “reasoning” session with the Walmart cashiers and/or managers about how prepaid GC should be allowed (that because they have the word debit on them, and that they have a PIN that only you know and that you have proof that the PP card was purchased by you, etc.) ? Granted, this time it worked in your (our) favor because the manager at that particular WM finally “saw the light”. But think about it for a second, it could have gone badly the other way around, too. The manager could still say “nope, we only take cards that have your name on it, and that’s store policy”. He could then bring the issue up the next time he’s in the meeting with the District Manager and other store managers in that area, and god forbids they actually agree. Could you have ruined it for a few others in that area? Maybe…
I think you raise a very valid point. The reason why people are upset (I am not upset) I believe is that he refused to work with the community to find a solution.
In the case of the DOT complaint it’s actually a punitive measure and one that wasn’t needed initially. As I understand it people advised him to escalate with lifemiles instead but he would not and felt entitled to do as he wished.
I can see how with money involved there is pressure, but I think that the essence of this is that if you are part a community you should work in collaboration with them to resolve it, rather than dropping that relationship to pursue your own goals.
It’s tricky subject.
My post today was more an advisory to people who have booked to be cautious and also to advise beginners not to do this.
I did not name the person because I am not mad at him, it’s not my place, so the post should include no ‘anger’ and I hope this comment helps answer why others reactions were as they were.
Been reading SAVEROCITY for about six weeks now. This blog includes the most prevarication and intriguing hints of good deals that lead nowhere AND includes the most articles that are bizarre showing that the author has too much time to think and write and not enough sense to think about the relevance of his thoughts.
I don’t want to sell out the community to make this blog more popular, so I don’t post tricks. I went through a phase where I thought otherwise and it was pointed out to me how harmful that was, and I agree. I think it is better to help people through education.
Make no mistake, I have enough of a presence established that if I wanted to give away all the secrets and load my posts with affiliate links I would make a lot of money at it, but that is not the path I have chosen to take. Instead I want to help people help themselves. It is less gratifying I know, but it creates people who are self sufficient.
Sorry to hear that you are disappointed by my content.
You don’t just “not sell out” you hint at these things leaving the rest of us feeling out of the loop. Why do it? You have made the same point over and over again with a variety of instances where someone has burst a deal. Big whoop. It happens. You know the deals that are being burst – what purpose does it serve to create these round about posts that tell the readers the same message over and over again. Do you actually think that the folks who are too ignorant to mind their p’s and q’s (and wind up bursting the deal) are going to stop? Your point is that they don’t know any better. Remember!!??? Duh. Plus what about all those other posts that seem to be just mental masturbation on your part?
Donna,
I can understand your point. The thing is though, that everyday a new deal comes out, and everyday some idiot blows it up. It is important I think to keep on iterating the damage that can be done since clearly the message has not got through. If it had, then it wouldn’t keep happening!
The biggest challenge out there is what you talk about – being left out. I totally agree. I want people ‘in’ but if you just post a ‘trick’ then you have no quality control. Therefore I am taking people on a longer journey where they can grasp things at principle level. If you understand the principle you can find tricks EVERYWHERE.
** I am not ‘in’ I just do my own thing and find deals**
I part of no secret forum, I get fed nothing, other than by email occasionally by a reader who is bouncing ideas. I am saying you can get these skills. It is about teaching a man to fish.
I do not get my own tricks from Flyertalk (though you could go there if you want them laid out for you) and we often find the same things. I find things by myself because I know when a deal is there or not. My goal is to teach people how to know if a deal is there or not.
What posts are you calling mental masturbation? I’d be glad to look at them and see what you mean.
Donna, you said, “Duh. Plus what about all those other posts that seem to be just mental masturbation on your part?”
Well I gotta say… when I get home after a long day of MSing and feel the need to whack Johnny behind the ear.. to punch the clown… to rough up the suspect… I find that it’s best to wash the residue from the purple ink of Money Orders off my dried skin hands first, else it hurts!
Again, this blog doesn’t just give out fish. It teaches people (who really pay attention and know what they are doing at higher levels) HOW to fish!
😀
Donna,
As a slightly experienced and dedicated MSer myself, I gotta tell ya I think this blog is more for someone who has been doing this at higher levels or at less standard methodology than most of the mainstream cookie cutter stuff. To me this blog makes perfect sense and talks directly to that which I seek and do on a daily basis. And that which I do has been paying off nicely for some time now. This blog does not hand hold or wipe bottoms for people. Instead, it tells them where to think about getting the parts to build their own out houses lol
Ok – great. What’s the principle that I was supposed to learn in re Lifemiles?
Hi Donna, meant to reply here but posted at bottom instead… copied my response below. I think discretion in knowing when to complain or escalate is something that is at times lacking in some parts of the population that copy these spoon-fed deals.
Not trying to pile on here or make you feel bad, but I think it takes some discretion to know when to complain and when to take the hit or bide your time. Let’s ignore the fact that complaining ruins it for everyone else. If you aren’t permanently shut down, complaining has the very real potential of highlighting to the company that it might be worth the effort for them to make you to take your business elsewhere. I don’t know the specifics in this case, but it’s possible that the guy could have let this slide, take the hit, then taken advantage of future glitch fares that would more than make up for the one-time loss.
Don’t believe me? Let me just say that I know of a situation where a guy complained and he was doing a scale-able deal that returned a multiple of $ invested. Well, after the first month he complained because it was taking too long for the redemption to arrive at his house. Upon investigation, the company realized that (1) the redemption had already gone out in the mail, and (2) that they should permanently ban this guy. Ignoring the fact that there might be repercussions for others, the act of complaining clearly hurt his ability to potentially take advantage of this program for what could have been many, many months.
The principle is to use Google. You’ve been given a valuable hint – what you do with it is up to you. If you want your hand held with circles and arrows, there are plenty of scumbag bloggers who will help you – while bombarding you with affiliate links. Seems like that’s more your style…
By the way, not just that blowing a deal is blowing a deal. You say you’re teaching folks to understand the underlying principles of collecting miles. What was the principle of the deal that I’m supposed to go forth and look for. After reading your post for six weeks I’ve learned no new principles to give me hints to find unusual opportunities.
You have to understand that I have no idea who you are and what level of experience you have, so tailoring content specifically that is relevant to you isn’t easy. I am trying to deliver a holistic approach that incorporates Net Worth, income and points/miles and have written a lot about this. I’d be surprised if none of it is relevant to you.
In order to really show the value I would have to know things like your current asset allocation, debt service, income, points and miles balances, goals, tricks used, time available, bankroll available etc… for all I know now you might not know what AP is.
Where do you want to start? Can you give me details of where you are now and where you need to get to?
I have written it all out but then decided it’s not appropriate to put in this comment area – would be happy to email it to you.
Absolutely!
And that feeling you have about it not being appropriate to put in a comment area, is the same feeling I have about not putting down specific details of a trick into a post. Sharing too much info on a blog post seems risky right?
Look forward to hearing from you.
Donna,
I would say the underlying principle is this:
Do not share deals with the news or some blog that plasters it all over the place (to make a profit on CC links and be cool amongst the blogger friend community). This will invariably kill deals.
That said, there are other tenants people who MS a lot come to understand and appreciate:
1) Do not share deals with the news or some blog that plasters it all over the place
2) Do not share deals with the news or some blog that plasters it all over the place
3) Do not share deals with the news or some blog that plasters it all over the place
4) if there are only like 12 seats available in first class on a flight and you tell all your friends about it, it is likely that some of them, AND YOU may not actually get a seat. So maybe it’s best to share a bit but only maybe to those who have or would share with you some equally great deal. This is not to say that the MS world is exclusive or un fair or selective, rather, it is to suggest that we be a bit more into keeping this stuff on the downlow to those within our circles (which constantly change evolve and let new friends in!) instead of plastering it to the masses.
5) do the work to think of, test and create new MS methods and deals. Don’t just rely on others to do it for you and get the easy map or arrows and circles methods while you sit at your desk getting paid and someone else is out in the field working!
Why, just yesterday I decided to test out in great detail whether or not the newly implemented Walmart swipe system for splits would actually take more than 4 cards in a single debit transaction!
Wanna know my results?
One way to know those results is to network, be friendly, be helpful, be respectful, have other ideas and tips that help, show you can step up, test and give pointers, and more.
One way to NOT know them is to wait for me to post them in FT or something. I had to go out there and figure out what works and what doesnt. I had to see if it woudl go through, thereby possibly using up a use of GCs or debit vehicles to make this transaction and if it did not go through, I have to be the one to wait 1-2-4-10-14 days for those funds to go back into my cards. Those people who sit at their desk waiting for guys like me to post these results didnt risk a thing. Why should i share with them? Well for some friends, i do share when they cannot. I have a friend in a city that has no WMT so I give him tips on all kinds of other ways to MS where he otherwise could not. In return, aside from becoming a friend with whom I have met for lunch, etc, he gives me ideas on how to speed processes up, how credit works, and other valued things I cannot begin to list without taking up too much space.
To get to know players who can share the good ideas, BECOME one of those players.
We have to be good stewards of MS. This is what I am speaking about at the CLT DO coming up, but if you wanna know more about that, check my writings, which you will also find to be useless if you are looking for exact step by step instructions on how to do a gig, on http://www.mileageupdate.com
thanks!
I thought rules #2,4,7 and 8 were ‘Don’t call’.
#9 is HUCA
the dont call rule applies to MR and mistake fares more than to MS things. There are many cases where NOT CALLING is the wise move but in some MS issues, one HAS TO call in order to get anything done. Like calling Bancorp and giving them one chance to send your money before FDICing them.
Marathon Man, thanks for putting your site there. I’m bummed I can’t go to Charlotte and meet you, I have weddings that weekend. Hoping to eventually get up to your level, but still just beginning and figuring it all out!
Keep pressin away Cate and youll get there.
I hope those who paid for the wedding did so w a points earning cc! Weddings can cost tens of thousands of dollars.
This is a case where one could actually make spend on many ccs or at least use a 5x cc or two or three to buy a ton of gcs and then actually use those gcs to pay every service company involved in the wedding! No mos needed.
If that didnt happen, pls lie to me and tell me it did.
LOL! In that case, it did. 😉
Good job!
I mean just think… A $45k wedding could give some lucky couple a nice $2k wedding gift!
Marathon Man for President!
As far as mental masturbation goes, I equate that to numerous posts by credit card sales machine “travel” bloggers conveniently gathered for your education here:
http://travelbloggerbuzz.com/blog-reviews/blogs-i-ignore/
Same old cards, same old arguments, day in, day out, several times a day. I think these bloggers pumping away have elevated masturbation to higher levels LOL.
Hey Matt,
There are a lot of us out there that appreciate that your lips are sealed. There are far too many bloated bloggers out there that will circle and arrow deals to death just for the price of another CC referral. Thos blogs are for the newbs and your blog is for the experienced. That is why the Donnas of this world do not get you.
Thanks Dave, it is nice to feel appreciated. But I think we can all feel where Donna is coming from as we all started somewhere too…. I am working with her offline to see where she is now and recommend some suggestions.
And thus a better man you are!
Hi Donna,
Not trying to pile on here or make you feel bad, but I think it takes some discretion to know when to complain and when to take the hit or bide your time. Let’s ignore the fact that complaining ruins it for everyone else. If you aren’t permanently shut down, complaining has the very real potential of highlighting to the company that it might be worth the effort for them to make you to take your business elsewhere. I don’t know the specifics in this case, but it’s possible that the guy could have let this slide, take the hit, then taken advantage of future glitch fares that would more than make up for the one-time loss.
Don’t believe me? Let me just say that I know of a situation where a guy complained and he was doing a scale-able deal that returned a multiple of $ invested. Well, after the first month he complained because it was taking too long for the redemption to arrive at his house. Upon investigation, the company realized that (1) the redemption had already gone out in the mail, and (2) that they should permanently ban this guy. Ignoring the fact that there might be repercussions for others, the act of complaining clearly hurt his ability to potentially take advantage of this program for what could have been many, many months.
By the way, does someone have a link for the actual story about the genius that decided to complain to the DOT? Asking for a couple friends and myself…
Scott, I know the individual well. I don’t feel comfortable putting the link here, but I will say that he never wrote about the DOT complaint in his blog. The only thing he wrote there was that there were issues with an LM trick ticket. “…I was denied boarding on a ticketed Lifemiles award from the US to [a] destination that’s near C3 and prices at C1… If you have any question about this, feel free to email me.” I believe the specifics of his complaint (not the specifics of the trick however) were/are being discussed on the LM Trick-it thread over at FT.
AM, I found the post as well as took a look over at the FT thread. That warning was useful in terms of providing a warning to potential users of that trick without giving away too many details. In general found the info on cabotage new and interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Cabotage is the real deal. Most people don’t know about it – after all, there are almost zero cases where (even if you tried) you’d have the opportunity to break the rule. However, for those that know the trick in question, there’s no doubt that cabotage is being broken. I suppose you could play dumb, but this just further proves the age-old saying of “ALWAYS HAVE A PLAN B.”
Very well written and concise – great post Matt.
This blogger has a habit. It’s becoming a tired act. So stop puffing your chest out about what a great guy you are for not spilling deals. It’s not impressive. And yes, there is a legitimate argument that it’s selfish and inclusive. #GetANewAct #You’reAsSelfishAsTheOtherBloggers #It’sGettingOld #yawn
Donna is not left out, she felt left out and I spent a lot of time to help her feel included and we booked her first award ticket yesterday to three of her bucket list destinations. Thanks for stopping by.