People kill people. As do animals, I don’t think vehicles do, guns certainly don’t.
I am perplexed.
Yesterday I shared the story of DCbroker, the man too big for #milemadness and in that post I censored the key tool in changing one type of manufactured spending vehicle, Amex Gift Cards, into another, Money Orders. This key tool was instrumental because it could facilitate the flow from one asset class to the next, and what’s more did it for zero fee.
You can think of it like a travel adapter. Your laptop is out of juice, but you can’t plug it in because you have the wrong connections, add on this middleman, and it flows. I shared the name of this with people who wanted it via a Twitter Direct Message, and my experience with that, along with a few other events, are troubling.
The post was a great hit, I think we had about 3000 views, and lots of chatter in the comments, and lots of sharing in twitter. The comments and the social sharing mean a lot to me, so if you read this and like hit ‘share’ or email it to a friend. Out of those 3000 I had about 220 requests for the name of the instrument. I actually stated in the post that it was omitted because if you were just reading for fun, you don’t need to know, but if you are ‘in the field’ you might find this helpful.
Now, I did start out by following the person, and sending a message – that is important because if I don’t follow I cannot hear back from the Direct Message, and when I changed over to just sending that does mean people couldn’t reply via DM, but they could still publicly tweet, email or leave a comment.
From the 220 messages I personally sent:
- I got about 50 “thank you’s”
- I got about 8 people asking where to get the product (that was actually included in the post BTW)
- I got 3 people drill down and challenge if the method was even possible, and if so how
I had dialogues with everyone who engaged me in one, and only these 3 people pushed me on stuff, to the point where I couldn’t answer questions and had to ask DCbroker for clarification. These 3 people, as much as they were a pain in my arse for challenging me, rather than just saying ‘thanks!’ are the only people I feel confident with trying the method, since they look at all the angles, the problems that could arise, how he circumvented them etc.
But what of the other 217 folk?
They all now have all the information to go out there and wreak havoc, but really, by their lack of questioning, I have to wonder if they are actually more astute than the other 3, or if they just aren’t aware of any of the angles they discussed. I did state that if you weren’t planning to use this method you don’t need to ask, but I really hope that some people asked me just for curiosity’s sake. Because if 220 people try to copy DCbroker, I see trouble ahead.
If you are thinking to try this out, please, make sure that it is with funds that you can absolutely afford to live without for at least 6 months. That is longer than anything should be locked up, but lets have a little wiggle room for safety.
This ties into what a reader and I discussed recently on the phone. There is this pressing need to not ‘miss a deal’ and over stretch yourself in order to not be left out. I see people going far and beyond where they should, and making totally irrational decisions in order to be ‘part of the game’. Please, try to understand your limits, and be very, very careful about them.
MilesAbound wrote today about a very interesting phenomenon where people are more willing to overstretch themselves when it comes to spending with a Credit Card. When you are bombarded with stories of how people like him, and others in #milemadness are making large amounts of money, realize that he, and the others, are already independently successful professionals, playing with money that they can live without.
That leads onto the next, rather big issue that is worrying me most. Credit Cards don’t get you into debt, bad habits get you into debt. I believe it. We make money on this site from the sale of Credit Cards, and it is bothering me more and more that we do. I love that I can earn a commission from a card from someone like, MilesAbound or George from Travel Blogger Buzz, I am comfortable because I know they know money, this is just a bit of (lucrative) fun. But what about the average Joe and Joanne, when all you see is the upside, doesn’t that feed into the same problems our society faces everywhere, in areas such as the fashion industry creating a nation of insecure, bulimic children? By promoting this attitude how much harm are we actually causing?
It is time to re-evaluate strategies.
I was happy to implant credit card hyperlinks to the body of my posts in the past, attempting to identify when I did, but now the time for that is over. You should never apply for a card so whimsically because it is a simple click away, you should make a conscious decision to do so based upon your ability to manage credit, understand risk, and enjoy the rewards. I will keep the credit card pages on the site so if you should decide to apply, you can find my links if you so choose (and thank you if you do) but they will not be hidden in the text.
I am not trying to discount the value that can be found within Credit Card rewards, but I am trying to put a firing lock on applying for them, it shouldn’t be easy to get one, we should make it a really well thought out decision, and if you have any element of your finances that is in a mess, you should think twice as hard about applying, because they are enablers, and they can crush you.
Credit card debt destroys families. Using them wisely can without doubt be a benefit, but it is not a surrogate for hard work, careful money management and living within your means. Remember, when you see the wonderful trip reports, that more important than that is having a strong family foundation, love for those around you, and appreciation for what you have, not bragging rights to a First Class Ticket.
I whole heartedly agree with the sentiment that it’s bad habits that gets people into credit card debt, not the credit cards themselves. I do think credit cards should be a bit more difficult to obtain, because it certainly seems like everyone and their dog can apply for and get any credit card. Credit cards are great for those people that can manage to use them properly. I use them for travel rewards points predominantly, and make sure I pay off my card each month in order to not incur interest fees.
I tried to DM you back but could not since you are not following me anymore. First of all, thank you for sharing. Personally, I think DC’s method of putting the spend on Amex GC makes no sense since he is leaving a lot of the profits to Topcashback’s reliability of tracking Amex GC purchases. I have been using XXXX for a while. But I buy them with Citi TY Pref, Amex BC, Amex PRG, US bank Flexperks. And I am pretty sure XXXX is going to stop very soon; nobody is making money off it. So, please warn people not to keep a lot of float in the hope of converting to XXXX.
Thanks for this, I did mention it was hard for some to reply as I didn’t follow after a while, so I appreciate you taking the time to discuss. I’d go on to say that people shouldn’t keep any float that they can’t afford to lock up, and not play beyond their means.
I can see the value in the BC or other 5x routes, but there is actually greater value (depending on how you value it, and assuming a fairly high track rate..) from the TCB route, especially if you use it to create SPG for sophisticated travel routes for net positive price.
Agreed that if someone wants to get SPG or other points, the TCB may be a good method. There is one more issue to fear. Amex has been known to ban people all together from buying GCs. I have not been able to buy one GC in the last 2 weeks despite several tries.
PS: TCB 3% on Amex GC is ending tomorrow.
Thanks for sharing the info. I did reply, but couldn’t send a direct message either. I had read FM post on the card you mentioned and I was aware of it. I haven’t tried buying one yet. Though, I plan on giving it a try. I do appreciate all the people that share their results of what works and what doesn’t. Where I live VRs are plentiful, and Office Max has been fantastic lately. I’ve used Evolve to pay a student loan and prepay my life insurance premium. Other than AP, that’s all I’ve used.
Thanks Shannon, I appreciate the reply, and sorry you couldn’t before. Good luck!
Matt,
I’m one of those 217 people. And the reason I didn’t jump right off the bat and drive to purchase those Xxxx is every path has a risk in this game. And without evaluating what to do when something goes wrong, you are just risking your money in lockup. A pure waste of time to unlock those funds. Likely, most of us are evaluating and reading about this method trying to find the failure points.
Most Americans want instant gratification. And credit cards are one way enabling this.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this, and it is reassuring to hear you are carefully considering the angles like this. Cheers, Matt
Thanks for the info about XXX….completely forgot about it’s existence and will let you know how it goes with the registration process we discussed.
For anyone interested in dealing with TCB and AMEX card orders, here’s a good Frequent Miler pimer:
http://boardingarea.com/frequentmiler/2014/02/18/amex-gift-cards-qa/
Good post. My DH and I are lucky enough to afford to play this game, but not everyone can and I caution my less well compensated friends to take it slow and easy.
I was one that corresponded with you yesterday – thanks for the speedy replies. You confirmed my guess…will I use XXXXX though? I think I’ll pick the low lying fruits first…AMEX gcs are an extra step.
Posts like this are what sets you apart. I have stopped reading MMS and TPG plus FTG due to all the CC peddling. Please don’t make it too hard to find your CC links though as we would like to support your blog!
Thank you Theresa, I appreciate the support, and good work keeping people within their boundaries. My links are at the top in the menu, if you do ever use them thank you!
Thanks Matt for ur reply! I tried to DM u but didn’t go through since ur not following.
I’ve used it b4, but I don’t think I’ll be duplicating what he did!
I am content with my current methods which are more common and less risky, but always following to learn new trends and hone my skills!
Again, Thx a bunch 🙂
Thanks Adam, I appreciate you taking the time to let me know and glad to hear that you are working on new things, I am sure the next new thing is just around the corner…
I’m one of the 217. When I learned about Xxxxx, I then went to FT to read all about it.
As for the rest of the post, I can only say that my thoughts on this hobby continue to evolve. I think there’s a lot of thoughtlessness that goes unmentioned, mainly because a few people are making serious short term profits with the SQ and the imitators don’t know better.
As a blogger, my own views evolve constantly. The one thing that keeps grounding me is that I started this site to help people make smarter decisions.
Matt, thanks again for this series!. I think many of us in the 217 just need time to research these topics ourselves…and balance against our own tolerance for risk in our specific financial situation. The information you provide is always more technical, insightful, and restricted than the ‘circles and arrows’ I’ve otherwise come across…so I think that supports a healthy self-selection process. Nevertheless, concern and words of caution can only add value to these topics, so thank you!
Thanks for letting me know, i’m glad you are taking the time for due diligence. I do think that my style of write lends itself to a certain selection as you say, since it takes a bit more work to get through (partly because I am still learning how to write well!) I do have a fear of leaving all the keys to the kingdom in a single post, since that allows someone who perhaps shouldn’t play, get way too deep into the game.
I’m also one of the 217 and I want to say THANKS for sharing the info as I had trouble doing it through a DM for some reason!
That being said, I am (lightly) in the field but you can mostly count me in as “curious” in this case. I’m with LAWizard in that I need to thoroughly look into things before choosing to jump in. This causes me to lose out on some great MS avenues (e.g. possibly XXXXX) but it helps me sleep easier, so it’s OK by me. If I ever choose to use XXXXX, plenty of questions will definitely be asked 😛
Hey Brian,
I am really pleased to hear this, and all the other replies showing that people are being considerate of the risks. And I look forward to being bombarded by questions when the time is right!
I tried messaging you but couldn’t cause you don’t follow me! Any way thanks alot and keep it up you’re posts are responsible and professional!
Hey Ivan, thanks for letting me know! Glad to hear you enjoyed the post.
Another thankful 217 here! Was tied up in a poker tourney, or would have thanked you earlier. Bought xxxx before at local grocery, but just MO’d out. BP at WM saves BB space. Saweet!
Also, like that you are considerate of risk. I’m only 6 months again this, but also have a long financial industry history. Seems like there has been a wave of people in this even since me! Two things: it takes money to make money, and it is really hard to consistently make money.
Sorry… Typo… Should have written “6 months into this”
Hey Rick
I think you are the first to tell me they have replicated and I’m really happy to see that happen. Glad that you appreciate the risk angle, I hope everyone succeeds, but some may need to start a little slower.
Crazy thing is, I seem to constantly be slowing myself down. With my current cards, lines, and float capability, I could probably triple what I do. I read about people all the time pressing it to the limit right out of the gate. I try to think about how my ‘bankers’ see me. After all, we are selling them a story with our transactions.
I am looking to develop this long-term and pace myself to bring them along in a credible and sustainable way. Rather than thinking about how many points I can have 6 months or a year from now, I am more focused on what my earnings capacity and flexibility can be.
Your blog is about the only one I know that tries to remind people of the risk we assume.
Thanks for this, I too don’t push it as far as I could, it is an interesting game, and we have to think of what we can lose, frequently, for those able to really play all you lose is opportunity. I know of people pushing $1m a month or more, but they can float the funds.
I have to try to keep an eye on sharing the risks as the excitement of the rewards can make us all carried away at times.
Thanks for sharing the info. Based on the hints in the post I was guessing this was the card. The card is only available in four different chains in my area. One of the chains I know won’t let you buy any type of card over $100 with credit. I’m going to check out the other three and hope one of them will let me buy it with a credit card.
Anytime, let me know how you get on Andy
We had a bit of twitter correspondence about xxxx. I botched the purchase of xxx, and it will cost me about $10 to get out of this vehicle. However, it was will still be great to get the equivalent of roughly a 4% (3% + 1% minus fees) after tax return on the amex gcs, which carries no liquidation risk long-term. We’ll get a much better, risk-free return than money market funds or CDs. I am beginning to think of MS as an alternative to parking cash in a no-return bank account. Thanks for the post and your commitment to supporting our community.
Glad that the snafu is manageable, and yes, it can pay way more than typical financial vehicles, but as you show, only if you can accept when things go a little awry.
I’m another one of the 217, didn’t engage via twitter but am grateful for the sharing nonetheless. I’ve found myself sharing many of your blog posts as they are well written and have a deeper financial understanding than the usual stop buying Starbucks posts of other financial bloggers.
However, I’d argue that there wasn’t anything much complicated about the process. Anyone with a few hours to kill can figure out all of this simply by searching the flyertalk MS forum (probably why you had less engagement, there are other forums). Additionally, with DCbrokers method as presented, you only have 5k float. This isn’t really risky at all, save for the minutes spent driving from a grocer to WM. I really hope that no one with less than that amount of float is playing any kind of financial games like this ( as we’ll, to make any sense of MS, spreadsheet skills are a requirement, and probably go hand in hand with the above). As I’m getting more and more into this it seems that the methods that are best are ones that have multiple layers like DCbrokers, or take advantage of some major loopholes and provide major gains but require questionable ethics.
Thanks for your posts and for showing me that the game is actually less complicated than than I thought.
Hey Mr Pagel,
I never said it was complicated! I loved it for its simplicity 🙂
And yes, I really think that there are people out there who cannot handle the $5K float, it is a large amount of money for many people, who see things like this and want in on the game.
The game can really be quite simple, as long as we stick to principles, we can see opportunities like this everywhere.
Hey Matt, very similar situation (direct message back to you failed). I’m doing research to understand the risks, etc. I appreciate the post. Keep up the great work and thanks – I know it is not easy to do what you do.
Hey, thanks Scuta, much appreciated!
I’m one of the 217-50. So first of all thank you.
I asked to confirm my hunch and it matched. I’ve been buying XXXX like some others using 5x.
How could one buy 5k Amex GC everyday (per person) ? Isn’t there a limit per week as well as per month. Moreover, buying 5000/Y (where Y is the max load per XXXX card) is not trivial. Soon one could be flagged or you have to run around a lot ?
There is a $75K monthly limit, so you would hit that after 15 orders. And yes, I would think that having a network of stores rather than just one should help!
I’m also one of the 217-49’ish. I believe I thanked you…by saying you’d need a programmer to figure out that password! To be honest….I have the money to play with and could miss it for six months. However, I’m still in the “freaked out” mode of just buying the VR’s and Giftcards at stores without fear of shut down. I have a BB and am thrilled I finally am paying my mortgage and bills thru my credit card now. I still don’t understand why people go to Walmart to load visa gc’s onto BB. Why not just do it from the pin at home? I tried to ask on FT, but got creamed, told to keep reading and clearly wasn’t up to this game. Which FYI…is crap b/c I’ve been a member since June of ’11 and lurker a year + before that… ALL I do is read! I barely ever comment just to avoid getting yelled at. I did the 100k Citi card…so those 110k miles in one month left a wonderful aftertaste. Would I love to earn 100,000 miles a month every month? Yes! Will I? Nawh. Do I still have an appreciation for those who can and do? Absolutely!
This echoes almost EXACTLY my MS habits – I love being able to get a bunch more miles when I have time… but always, always feel a little dirty getting stares from the minimum-ish wage folks at various stores where I’m wandering in buying giftcards.
So, still a small fish in the big MS pond (according to FT etc) but my friends would think I’m nuts… I think we need another Venn diagram on this!
Ha, no more venns for at least a week 🙂 they stretch the limits of my design skills!
The visa giftcards can’t be loaded from home, only vanilla can load from home online.
Take things slowly and ignore the tribes of ass hats that exist on the forums. There are some good folk there too.
I did it twice. I just set the pin and loaded it. But, I couldn’t figure out why people weren’t doing it or were saying not too so I stopped doing it. I have 1000$ in VGC that I set the pin in that I’m dying to load on BB instead of going back to get a MO. @Better…yesterday I was checking out and this man literally screamed,”$1102! What did you buy??!” I happened to be holding a Perdue chicken so I held it up and said,”I guess the chicken is a little overpriced.” And he said it again…”$1102!! Wow!” Soooo, thanks dude for letting the whole food store know.
Ah.. are you registering them as debit cards and loading up to 1K per month? If so that has some rumors of getting accounts in trouble.
And what a wonderfully helpful shopping companion…
Yep, did a pin and then loaded them to BB. I only loaded 50$ and 200$ and stopped and have been doing money orders since. The strange thing. My store has been loaded with VRs. Like five tab things full forever. The last three weeks? Nothing. Two other stores have been empty too. I swiped three cards in a store in a different state and will take them in here to load. (I know, maybe it’s stealing???) Also-can you send me the secret product name…I thought you were talking about that programmer thing and couldn’t follow it worth a damn. I Twittered you, couldn’t send a DM.
@Nicole – as Matt said below, BB doesn’t want you to register prepaid or gift debits and use them to load online. I tried this when they first removed the fee (as did a lot of other people), because I had some $50 cards I wanted to empty without all the hassle of WM or anything else. I did 2 or 3, and then the loads just stopped going through. Someone from BB called me and explained that it is not meant to be used for debit gift cards, but debit cards linked with a bank account. So, I wouldn’t do it if I were you. (I don’t know why someone on FT couldn’t just say that to you. It’s very hard to find tiny bits of info like that without spending half your life reading other irrelevant exchanges.)
Jamie,
Thank you SO much for your response. I literally dropped to my knees, raised my palms to the Gods and felt sunbeams on my face. Had you been in front of me…I woulda totally made out with you. Swear. That said….I met the minimum spend on the AA (100k, but only got 75k bc I’m supposed to match up) and last night got out of bed at 1am to apply for my husband. Instant approval. (Insert PharrelI singing Happy) can’t wait for his card to arrive in its fancy box so I rip it open.
… and they say the internet is a cold and impersonal place 😉
(glad to be of help, I’m working on that AA min spend for my husband’s card, too)
Your credit card rant and new policy are awesome. Thank you for doing that. I am featuring this article on the next TBB post. We need more Saverocity type blogs and less Wallet Sluts or the rest in my infamous Blogs I Ignore list 🙂
Absolutely agree – I’ve always been curious how many folks following the circles-and-arrows blogs are reasonably well thought out folks with their finances (separate accounts, enough float to not worry about timing of cash outs) versus folks who are just racking up and rolling over cc debt.
Great new policies!
Glad you agree, small changes like this hopefully will add up.
Another of the 217 – should have sent a thank you, but am new to Twitter, so just slipped my mind. After some research, the free XXXX cards do not exist in my area, so makes this particular method impracticable. The general method gives me avenues to explore, however. I have only been doing the MS thing about six months, so really appreciate the information you have provided.
Thanks Michael, remember, take it slow and easy at the start and only go further if you can afford to tie up that ‘bankroll’.
I am also one of the infamous 217 – but didn’t say thanks. I thought Xxxxx was known/old news and not worthy of any secrecy, but I’ll not spoil it in case a few haven’t heard about it and you can get more Followers.
As for your new blog policy, I applaud you for it. TBB is making an impact and I hope all other pimps reconsider.
But I don’t really blame pimps, because the Johns are the real culprits as they only encourage such shady behavior. No Johns and the pimps would be looking for a real job instead of dreaming up yet another way to pimp Ink cards (sadly, even VFTW is going to H in a pimping hand basket)
Thank you for saying thanks now! I don’t think it is fair of me to judge what others do. The reason I started off the post using verbiage akin to the gun debate is that it is not a clear cut argument, it is a personal choice for position and accountability.
I’m one that didn’t say thanks-no follow for the dm -we’ve interacted before so I was caught off guard-so that’s my excuse. Sorry for the bad manners! I was surprised at xxxx as it’s been around for quite some time. I do pretty well with MS but am always amazed at how far some of my buddies push it. Comfort and risk levels-I always follow my internal compass.
Thanks Karyn, no worries, and appreciate you coming by to say thanks!
I really admire your dropping the cc links from the body of your text. Yes, it might cost you a few signups on the margin, but odds are it will save a few people from signing up for something that isn’t in their interest and that you are willing to make that trade-off speaks well of you. I believe you previously talked about the power of establishing good default choices (i.e. making retirement plan contributions opt-out vs. opt-in has huge and real effects on behavior and outcomes) and I see your move in that spirit.
Thanks Neil,
Truthfully, this will hurt my bottom line. I get the most signups when I link in post (and don’t mention it is an affiliate link) but that to me tells me that some people must be clicking through and signing up without much thought to the consequences.
From those people, some are no doubt in control of their finances, but some most likely aren’t thinking things through fully, and may well get into trouble.
Cheers
Matt
Hi,
I would like to know the XXXXX method, can you please email it to me? I can’t DM from twitter as you are not following me. Thanks!
I was one of the 220, and appreciate the Twitter response!
But I think pulling the links is an overreaction. You know your audience better than I do, but from what it seems, the vast majority are well-educated professionals participating in this game as a hobby. This type of highly specialized information must be sought out, and the general public wouldn’t just stumble upon it–or have the financing to play. You provide a great product to those who can play, and you should be rewarded for your efforts.
Hi Spencer,
You are spot on- my readership demographic is highly educated and sophisticated. The way I view it, those people who are loyal here can ‘figure out’ where the links are (at the top) and support if they so choose.
However, my site is gaining popularity and often hits highly for people ‘googling’ things that are beyond their scope- I would rather protect those people from themselves and not link in text.
I think if it is a clear section or banner/advert it is an active choice, rather than an explorative ‘click’ on hyperlinked text that can lead to conversions.
Also, I know for sure that when I write about a card or offer it converts- which means that my influence pushes some people to ‘buy’, maybe they would have bought anyway and it was just good timing, but maybe I’m encouraging them.
Hats off to you for driving a crucial point to this society where many people are getting themselves in to the debt madness and become indebted until their very end. Everyone seems to encourage this and this needs to change. Skillful usage of debt is good and fun but then people should understand their limits and stop when it is no more fun. I like your blog for being so honest and for caring about your fellow mates.
Thanks Kumar!