We had a bit of drama over at The Forum this week. Andy, who writes over at Military Finance shared something from The Forum on his other blog over at BoardingArea. It wasn’t really a big deal. He was excited that something that was targeted towards the Military was a great MS opportunity, and wanted to share it with those readers and also bring them over to The Forum for further discussion. He actually didn’t out the deal, but said he would send it to folk via email if they were interested.
I have established rules in The Forum and based on this have reinforced them in their simplicity:
- Rule 1 Don’t be a jerk
- Rule 2 Don’t talk about what others post in The Forum on any blog, or forum
There was a strong backlash to the news that someone had mentioned a thread on a blog, people starting baying for blood immediately, a thread was started called:
So much for a “safe & free from bloggers” forum.
People who had added little to nothing to the forum chimed in with ‘Ban Please’.
As you might imagine, it was quite the morning for me!
It was a conversation that needed to happen
I established private areas of The Forum called Level 2, this covers Manufactured Spend and Travel Hacking, things that I don’t talk about on this blog as I strive to be a better steward of the game, but things I want to help people figure out. That is the constant battle that I face, finding the narrow path between helping people get in the game, without blowing it up for others.
Intent is the root of this. Other blogs do the same thing, a famous example of a blog that takes things from others and puts it on a platter to a wide audience is Million Mile Secrets. It’s a great business model, and a very helpful site to many new folk. I also like Daraius from my past interaction with him via email. The only difference between what he is doing and what I want to do is that he wants to share for the purpose of converting card applications, whereas I want to share because I don’t think people should be excluded.
The challenge I faced in navigating this is how to share without letting in the wrong people. The wrong people are the people who come from sites like Million Mile Secrets, The Points Guy et al and are given too much information without control. They don’t have the knowledge or skills to deal with the problems, they aren’t good stewards because they don’t know what stewardship is.
Not all people should be in the game
I think we should acknowledge that some people just don’t give a shit. There are people out there that just care about themselves and not the community or bigger picture. There are many of these that will take what they can from others, and when their own plans fail they will burn anything that they can to cover themselves. These people exist at all levels of experience, from those seeking low hanging fruit on blogs, to people who frequent secretive, coded communities on forums.
I want to weed out those people as part of my stewardship, but I want to do so without being a jerk (rule #1) and as I have a natural tendency to being a real jerk I have set a high bar for myself here…
You can’t have an online community without weaknesses
In reaction to this ‘Scandal’ from last week I was asked to list all bloggers who are on the site, I compromised with adding a tag to their profile. Since doing this I have decided that it is dumb. There are members of The Forum from FlyerTalk, Travel Codex, and other smaller, more informal groups. They are all a risk of sharing information, they can all betray the trust I place in them. On the matter of trust, I don’t think Andy betrayed my trust, I think it was just a snafu, and his intent was good, and that is why I don’t mind what happened.
“The Forum is just a Friendlier FlyerTalk”
This was one comment that emerged from this thread. And it was one that I found fascinating. First I was pissed off, then I found it challenged me to write a response that wasn’t ‘jerk-like’ (those damn rules!) and I think that this is really the motivation behind this entire post.
Forum software is dime a dozen. You can build a forum for free, minus some hosting charges, though the platform I use does cost a few hundred bucks a year. Forums are really just a platform for people to communicate. So yes, while I am ‘stewarding’ The Forum and asking that people are nice, and helpful it could be construed as a friendlier FlyerTalk. So what is the difference between The Forum and FlyerTalk? It isn’t that it is friendlier, though yes, if you are a jerk I will step in and take action.
We have recently gained some very experienced people from FlyerTalk, and I am happy to have the experience of Fuel Dumping and other technical matters, but I am also watching very closely if they brought baggage with them.
I would rather ban an expert than keep a jerk.
Luckily, thus far they are all being awesome too, so that is really nice to see!
That one difference should give you pause for thought. It cuts to the root of the matter. FlyerTalk is a business that has been sold and traded between private equity firms for years. They pay for the software and hosting just like I do, they monetize it just like I do, but they don’t have me. Do you think that the owners of KKR are on FlyerTalk helping people out?
Every new member of The Forum is like a member of my family. I try to answer every question that I can, and I use The Forum software to help me reach more people, and then in turn find other great people to help too. There are people on The Forum with more knowledge than I have, and if we can help one another, with the right attitude, we can all benefit. I want to build a place where people share vision – they are there to learn, people will help them learn, and people won’t be jerks to one another. If we do that right we can create a new generation of stewards, and also foster innovation.
Can you see the difference yet?
Another comment I got a few times (not on The Forum ironically) is that I should merge with Travel Codex, because ‘we are the same thing’. The last person to suggest this has actually never been to my forum. Hot tip – if you want to piss me off, say that we should merge, especially if you have never even read a page of The Forum.
I actually think that Travel Codex and The Forum would share some of the same things from a philosophical perspective. But my goal really is to build a new generation of best practices. I put that over and above ‘secrets’. So if you want to have a private venue for experts only, sure I could build that in for you, but it isn’t the core of the Forum. And what’s more, from what I have seen already, the new folk, like Nancy who came to CLT as a complete beginner, are already innovating way beyond what the jerk like ‘experts’ can offer. Also, for those that haven’t noticed yet, I spend more time on Personal Finance topics in The Forum than on Travel.
There are too many people who find a bluebird trick, then go send their paycheck to Merrill Lynch and lose millions of dollars of compound interest over their lifetime – where’s the logic there? We need to understand that the game is about beating the system. Everywhere.
So, it was time to have that conversation, and in doing so I found that I can really define The Forum. I am focusing at the grass roots, helping to connect like minded people who will innovate in this community, and keeping out the crap that comes from insecure, mean, internet people. I feel very confident in knowing that I can take these good, honest people and help them on their journey, and we are already seeing that they can produce things far beyond the douchebags that seek to protect their tricks through rudeness.
So, experts. I’d gladly have you as part of my community on The Forum, and if you value the art and stewardship of the game I think you’ll gladly be part of it. But those who think it is just a private members club for travel hacking, it’s not the place for you.
In case you forgot, don’t be a jerk, and don’t talk about what you read on The Forum.
Matt said:
“Every new member of The Forum is like a member of my family. I try to answer every question that I can, and I use The Forum software to help me reach more people, and then in turn find other great people to help too. There are people on The Forum with more knowledge than I have, and if we can help one another, with the right attitude, we can all benefit. I want to build a place where people share vision – they are there to learn, people will help them learn, and people won’t be jerks to one another. If we do that right we can create a new generation of stewards, and also foster innovation.”
Yes! Not only is this a great description of how Matt has approached The Forum, but it is similar to how I approach it and, if I may be so bold, how all Forum members should behave. While I do not see my small role to include welcoming everyone, and I am in no way on the cutting edge of MSing, I certainly do try to reply to questions when I know the answer, share hints (and failures) to make life easier for the next person, start threads if I think an issue may be of interest to others, contribute my opinions when Matt asks for our feedback, respond to DMs from other members, and acknowledge useful posts and posters.
If we can all aim to do this, our individual level of experience and expertise becomes less significant, and as a group we can create the community we want to see. Obviously time and other commitments will mean we can’t all do this all the time, but if we all take it seriously at least some of the time, and we follow the simple rules, we will ultimately build that community.
There you go! Be bold!
We are already making breakthroughs, and I am sure it will only get better with the right people and the right attitudes.
Very well put. Thank you.
Guess you are aware that there is a thread tripping blog on BA as well. Not sure if this is the one you are referring to here or not. Seems to be picking up posts regularly and uses them as the centerpiece for the blog post. Not sure how most of us would feel about having the posts we make on the forum be available for wider consumption on a blog. Mostly, it is a reminder to me that regardless of how we view our own stewardship, others might not respect our discretion and could even quote us in another place. Sadly, I doubt the posters agreed to have their words lifted and put into print elsewhere.
I am aware of that, it is very disappointing, but there is nothing much I can do about it, I am choosing to ignore it. The thread he referenced was in public view.
Yeah, it is disappointing. But, what is the saying?…if you don’t want it on the front page of the New York Times, don’t put it on the Internet. Good reminder I guess…
Exactly. We have to take accountability for our own decisions rather than blame others for theirs.
“Every new member of The Forum is like a member of my family,” Great, wanna AP with me, I know you need a “C” 🙂 Just kidding. Great blog post, love your forum and I love all the energy and thought you put into discussing morality and being helpful. You’re going to be an interesting CFP!
Ha! I only need a C if you believe the forums 🙂 A-B-A seems to be working great.
Certainly is going to be interesting as a CFP, I plan to launch the firm this year if I can manage the other things going on right now. Thanks for being part of the Forum!
I disagree that Codex and the Forum are the same. I find it very different in terms of the culture. I have spent time on both and have decided to stop participating in Codex because I value the interaction of the Forum more. In the same way, I occasionally view FlyerTalk, but I don’t participate because of its culture, preferring the MileagePoint board for interaction.
Indeed, culture and tone will emerge, and people will gravitate to the places where they feel fit their personality best. Glad to have you with us.
Thoughtful, well-written post! I’ve been perusing the forum for a couple of weeks now and have been impressed by it’s civility. Hopefully over time the quality of the content will continue to improve. Agree that recent postings by “experts” on FD and other topics have helped.
I was intrigued by this: “We need to understand that the game is about beating the system. Everywhere.” That statement captures an essence of the game. When playing, we’re all pirates at heart (although YMMV!). Which raises an interesting dilemma. Outside of their own circle, pirates tend not to value community, stewardship, sharing, or any of the stated raison d’ etre of your blog– unless its in their very direct self-interest to do so. In the travel hacking world, some would say that MMS and the other mega blogs have merely figured out ways to get to the top of the food chain.
I would find it useful to know how, or if, you plan to benefit economically off of Savorocity and The Forum. What’s your economic model, and how does that model foster the values of stewardship and community?
You see, I knew you liked Pirates 🙂 While we are on the topic have you heard of honor among thieves? I really thing that a powerful, underlying concept at play here is that the system as we know it is bad. I am talking about all that stuff with the banks causing the financial crisis, no accountability, blatant abuse at the top etc.
So what I would like to do is spread awareness and financial education to empower people, to show that the game extends far beyond an award ticket -to discuss concepts of intrinsic value and arbitrage on a wider scale.
You raise an interesting point about the circle. I believe that ‘charity begins at home’ but once you have the skills you should extend your sphere of influence. So I would like to help encourage a group to become empowered, and then when they feel ready they can help give back on a wider scale, so it starts narrow and focused, and then can spread.
Here is more information on Saverocity and its plans for monetization: https://saverocity.com/travel/saverocity-join-us-post/
I tend to use a Robin Hood analogy on my nice days. On other days course reading your exploits I want to un-retire and be a HeadHunter–with a real spear in the Bezos jungle!
It can be a lot of fun, I have to say! But retirement sounds pretty neat too 🙂
I’m not sure if retirement is more or less fun after I discovered MS. It’s like a part-time job. Hope it’s like other stuff that it only takes twice as long as first and once you get it down, it’s a semi-snap.
Introduced MS to my twenty something nephews this weekend. They were intrigued. I started with Amazon Payments and they said, “We’ve been doing AP for years. Eery college kid in America does Amazon Payments, is that what you call manufactured spending?” Really had to laugh. They didn’t know about Serve and all the rest so maybe I’ll start tutoring.