U.S. Law Lets I.R.S. Seize Accounts on Suspicion

[ValueTravelerOZ]

Interesting article in the NYT about I.R.S. seizing accounts : http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/us/law-lets-irs-seize-accounts-on-suspicion-no-crime-required.html?_r=1

I like to hear the feedback...especially how it relates to MS.

 

[Deltahater]

especially structuring makes you look suspect. Big article in the USAtoday or foxnews on this topic last week

 

[MickiSue]

There was one in the Strib, as well. Talking, actually, about how the laws will be changing to prevent seizing assets with no other behavior to cause suspicion other than the structuring.

Small businesses have complained.

 

[Yeshu]

Is deposting MOs in different banks (not necessarily on the same day) considered structuring?

 

[Voyaging Doc]

Seizing frequent flyer accounts will be next

 

[Matt]

Is deposting MOs in different banks (not necessarily on the same day) considered structuring?

Yes.

Simple answer for future questions:

If I want to deposit more than $10K without doing it in one go, but not be guilty of structuring can I <insert grand plan>? The answer is no.

 

[Andres]

Doesn't the date of the MOs prove by itself that you are not structuring (IF the total MO deposits < 10k)? I mean, we deposit more than 10k a month, but we deposit them as we buy them. Assuming we buy less than 10k per day, then we are not structuring. We deposit them as we get them to avoid the risk of getting rob, losing them, etc.

 

[Matt]

Doesn't the date of the MOs prove by itself that you are not structuring (IF the total MO deposits < 10k)? I mean, we deposit more than 10k a month, but we deposit them as we buy them. Assuming we buy less than 10k per day, then we are not structuring. We deposit them as we get them to avoid the risk of getting rob, losing them, etc.

Sounds logical.

But who are you proving to in your 'prove by itself' question?

 

[Miles]

It won't prevent the gummint from seizing all my assets if they want to, but I keep all paperwork in hopes of proving the legitimacy of all my transactions.

Iwrite all GC numbers on their packages, and staple all associated receipts (and the drained GCs themselves) into little bundles which go into boxes stored in the closet.

The proof that it's all my legitimate money is there, if they choose to look at it.

 

[MickiSue]

The issue isn't that you are being shady, or even that you can't prove that you are not being shady. The issue is that they can seize your assets and hold them indefinitely without accusing you of any crime. The IRS is pretty scary in its powers.

When a family member's business went bankrupt in the 80's (won a lawsuit, but not the cost of attorney's fees), they pierced the corporate veil and seized personal assets. When they were successful doing so, the state decided that they could seize assets, as well, and raided the relative's house and walked out with furniture.

Don't piss off the IRS. They can bring a world of hurt.

 

[Andres]

Sounds logical.

But who are you proving to in your 'prove by itself' question?

Matt, I don't fully understand your question, but I'll give it a try to best answer it.

I guess the "who" would be the person accusing me of structuring. But not any person (just a week ago a WM manager accused me of structuring for making multiple deposits on my Serve card. I don't think that person qualifies as a "who" in this case, since they have no power to put me into jail). There's lots of legitimate reasons to make a lot of deposits < 10k. I would think this is a legitimate reason. We want the funds to be available as soon as possible, so we just deposit them the same day we buy them. It takes my bank 3-4 days to clear the funds. I could collect them and make one big deposit weekly, but I prefer to dump as I buy. If that is structuring, then I guess I should be in prison. That law should be written off, or updated. 10k isn't what it used to be.

 

[Haley]

This is a seize first ask questions later kind of world we live in.

 

[Matt]

Matt, I don't fully understand your question

The purpose of my question was to highlight ability to float, beyond play money.

It might well be that your argument is logical and will 'clear your name' however, if you have your assets seized then you'll be racing around attempting to have people listen to this logic while your money is confiscated.

Can you handle that?

What I'd like people to think about is beyond the logical argument, what happens if possession is 9/10ths of the law, and your assets are possessed?

 

[sriki]

Matt, I don't fully understand your question, but I'll give it a try to best answer it.

I guess the "who" would be the person accusing me of structuring. But not any person (just a week ago a WM manager accused me of structuring for making multiple deposits on my Serve card. I don't think that person qualifies as a "who" in this case, since they have no power to put me into jail). There's lots of legitimate reasons to make a lot of deposits < 10k. I would think this is a legitimate reason. We want the funds to be available as soon as possible, so we just deposit them the same day we buy them. It takes my bank 3-4 days to clear the funds. I could collect them and make one big deposit weekly, but I prefer to dump as I buy. If that is structuring, then I guess I should be in prison. That law should be written off, or updated. 10k isn't what it used to be.

You might want to look into this a bit

www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5324

 

[Jack]

... If that is structuring, then I guess I should be in prison.

They don't put you in prison. They just take your money.

You might want to look into this a bit

Link not broken, took me to the page when I clicked on it.

 

[Yeshu]

Yes.

Simple answer for future questions:

If I want to deposit more than $10K without doing it in one go, but not be guilty of structuring can I <insert grand plan>? The answer is no.

Thanks, but what is the solution? I usually buy one money order for a little less than 500 and deposit it immediately in a bank and a few days later, I take out another money order and deposit it in another bank...I usually don't deposit more than 2K in a month...I mean where we deposit our MOs should be our discretion, right? Still don't understand this concept of structuring.

 

[Jack]

Thanks, but what is the solution? I usually buy one money order for a little less than 500 and deposit it immediately in a bank and a few days later, I take out another money order and deposit it in another bank...I usually don't deposit more than 2K in a month...I mean where we deposit our MOs should be our discretion, right? Still don't understand this concept of structuring.

The solution is to not break up the deposit if you are depositing more than 10k in a short period of time. At 2k per month you do not need to worry about it.

 

[Andrew Beall]

I know this has been beat to death, and I didn't want to start a new thread. I'm still trying to figure out how to make sure I'm not structuring. Heck, it almost seems like 'impossible to MS large amounts without the possibility of being accused of structuring. I'm just getting into the MO game, and just got the WF 5% card last week. After reading some of these threads I'm thinking I'll close all my checking accounts other than WF and my other primary checking account. I have a $9k CL, so all of my deposits are still going to be under $10k since that's the only card I'm MS'ing on. Is making all my deposits in one bank enough to show I'm not structuring? I plan to ramp up to about $4k a day if everything goes as planned.

 

[Andres]

My 2 cents here: depositing 120k/month in a single checking account will likely results in you losing all your relationships with WF. Your best bet is to spread the MOs around. Keep your checking accounts open. In fact, I would open more accounts to help spread the love. If you are doing just 4k/day, I doubt you would get in trouble for "structuring".

 

[Andrew Beall]

My 2 cents here: depositing 120k/month in a single checking account will likely results in you losing all your relationships with WF. Your best bet is to spread the MOs around. Keep your checking accounts open. In fact, I would open more accounts to help spread the love. If you are doing just 4k/day, I doubt you would get in trouble for "structuring".

That was my initial thought. I have seven checking accounts right now. I've heard of people depositing lots of MO with WF without getting shut down; it seems like they're more tolerant than other banks. On the other hand there are still plenty of people that have been shut down. Of course I value not having my funds seized more than my relationship with WF... Then again there's no point in MS'ing at all if it's going to inevitably lead to a quick shutdown. I didn't realize $4k a day was a small number, even in the MS game. Granted I know there are people doing much more, but that's $1.5M a year.

To clarify, I'm not trying to avoid structuring by structuring. I'm trying to make sure I'm not structuring in the first place.

 

[InstinctX]

I reported this in another thread... Early Warning Services is Chex-like system.

EWS is owned by Bank of America, BB&T, JPMorgan Chase, Wells Fargo and Capital One. Formed to combat fraud in the financial industry, EWS makes it possible for banks to easily exchange information between organizations in order to prevent and combat fraud. They maintain & update the monthly beginning & avg balances for any of checking / savings accounts at any of those banks. You can request a free annual report (it is very very detailed): http://www.earlywarning.com/consumer-information.html

 

[MickiSue]

@Andrew: assuming a five day week, I would be more concerned about running approximately 10x my CL per month, than being accused of structuring. You're more likely to have that lovely 5x card be closed (and lose all your points) than to deal w/accusations of structuring.

 

[Andrew Beall]

@Andrew: assuming a five day week, I would be more concerned about running approximately 10x my CL per month, than being accused of structuring. You're more likely to have that lovely 5x card be closed (and lose all your points) than to deal w/accusations of structuring.

Well, plenty of people have made it the full 6 months doing more than 10x CL. Sure, some get shut down, but some don't. It's only 6 months, and if I even make it 1-2 months I will still consider that a win. I didn't get the card to make a couple hundred bucks a month. I've pretty much decided any MS deal worth less than $1k isn't worth my time if it involves much effort. I've just been averaging about $1k a day so far, but will ramp up more when the fraud alerts slow down. I don't see shut downs as a big deal, especially when it comes to deals with a limited timeframe. You don't lose anything other than what you could have potentially made. People get shut down doing small amounts too. I prefer the take the money and run approach rather than the slow and steady approach. If I get shut down I at least want it to be worthwhile.

 

[El Ingeniero]

just a week ago a WM manager accused me of structuring for making multiple deposits on my Serve card.

Annoying. People take one poorly understood computer course on reporting requirements, take the test at the end over and over until they pass, and use something they know less than nothing about to crap on others.