Should parents or Children fund College Education, and how can they do it.

MarkD

Level 2 Member
We got a 3.375% loan a couple of years ago for 20 years. We wanted to do the 15 but couldn't quite bring ourselves to pull the trigger with two kids headed to 4-year colleges and a third still in high school.

Now I'm looking at taking out a second mortgage to help cover college expenses for my kids. I'd rather take a bullet for them so they don't graduate with $50K or more in student loans.

I heard interest rates are expected to rise in the Spring according to "leading economists". I think that's just a carrot to get you to apply NOW!
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
Now I'm looking at taking out a second mortgage to help cover college expenses for my kids. I'd rather take a bullet for them so they don't graduate with $50K or more in student loans.
This reply is off topic from the off topic conversation... which I might spin off this thread anyway. But might there be a better way here? I think supporting the kids is fantastic, but you should realize:

They have longer to get out of debt that you do.
You can still give them $50K or so, but if you do it like this you lack control of spending.

EG - they are debt free, so they may will be more inclined to take on some crappy debt - graduate with no commitments, take a year off, see the world. All good and all that, but you are perhaps encouraging spending by facilitating the loan as a gift.

As an alternative, you could let them take on the debt, feel the pressure of it and foster a mindset 'paying your dues' and earning a salary. a year or two after graduation if they are in poor shape due to the economy/ lack of work (and they REALLY tried) you can still give them the $50K then to off load the loan. Or you can give it to them to help with a down payment on a house.

Honestly, I am not a parenting expert, and you know better than I about how to raise kids (I can just about stop mine crying if I slip enough Ambien in his milk...) but I think that having debt can have benefits in terms of responsibility, and if you really want to help them out, teach them responsibility of the debt, and step in later on to lift something off their plate after the habit is learned?
 

Barb

Level 2 Member
I agree with Matt. A little bit of debt can go a long way in terms of building financial responsibility and budgeting. That certainly was my experience with my college grad son.
 

MarkD

Level 2 Member
I agree with Matt. A little bit of debt can go a long way in terms of building financial responsibility and budgeting. That certainly was my experience with my college grad son.
I didn't say that they would graduate with zero debt, just not a massive amount over $50K. We're trying to limit it to $50K or less.

So far what we've done is let them take on the smaller low interest rate government offered funding which is capped at $5500 a year for freshman/sophomores and goes up to $7500 a year for juniors/seniors. If my freshman son takes the maximum each year he will graduate in four years with approximately $26K in student loans. My daughter will graduate with less debt since she did two years at a JC and transferred to a university for her final two years.

Sadly, there is a huge gap in what it costs per year and the amount of low cost loans available from the government. They fill that gap with 'parental' loans. I don't have the info in front of me but if I recall the interest rate was in the 6% or 7% range which obviously can be bettered somewhere else.

I agree that a little debt is a good thing but UCLA costs $33K a year. We've got the first year covered with a 529. That leaves approximately $99K for the remaining three years *assuming* my son can graduate in four years. That is just way too much debt to take on for a new graduate starting his or her adult life. This is also my 18 year-old son who was turned down by Capital One for his only credit card he applied for because he had very little income and no credit history. Our thought is to subsidize some of that $99K for him since we have the ability to do that.

We also have a third child who is still in high school. Right now I think he is leaning towards a JC but the financial picture gets cloudier if he decides to attend a four-year school as a freshman.

I'm open to any other ideas and I appreciate Matt's response and take from a financial perspective.
 

MarkD

Level 2 Member
I'd love to see a separate thread about this BTW. College financing is very stressful. At least we're earning points for a relaxing vacation... because we couldn't afford a vacation otherwise.
 

DanR

Level 2 Member
I didn't say that they would graduate with zero debt, just not a massive amount over $50K. We're trying to limit it to $50K or less.

So far what we've done is let them take on the smaller low interest rate government offered funding which is capped at $5500 a year for freshman/sophomores and goes up to $7500 a year for juniors/seniors. If my freshman son takes the maximum each year he will graduate in four years with approximately $26K in student loans. My daughter will graduate with less debt since she did two years at a JC and transferred to a university for her final two years.

Sadly, there is a huge gap in what it costs per year and the amount of low cost loans available from the government. They fill that gap with 'parental' loans. I don't have the info in front of me but if I recall the interest rate was in the 6% or 7% range which obviously can be bettered somewhere else.

I agree that a little debt is a good thing but UCLA costs $33K a year. We've got the first year covered with a 529. That leaves approximately $99K for the remaining three years *assuming* my son can graduate in four years. That is just way too much debt to take on for a new graduate starting his or her adult life. This is also my 18 year-old son who was turned down by Capital One for his only credit card he applied for because he had very little income and no credit history. Our thought is to subsidize some of that $99K for him since we have the ability to do that.

We also have a third child who is still in high school. Right now I think he is leaning towards a JC but the financial picture gets cloudier if he decides to attend a four-year school as a freshman.

I'm open to any other ideas and I appreciate Matt's response and take from a financial perspective.
Don't go to UCLA :). Are there any less expensive universities or, as your daughter did, junior college transfer to the university? IMO, the undergrad degree location doesn't matter all that much compared to a graduate degree.

Is the career path roughly known?
 

MarkD

Level 2 Member
Don't go to UCLA :). Are there any less expensive universities or, as your daughter did, junior college transfer to the university? IMO, the undergrad degree location doesn't matter all that much compared to a graduate degree.
USC fan??? :p Too late! He moves into the dorms on Saturday. He surprised us with his choice and left about $50K in scholarship money behind that California public universities just cannot offer. The private university that offered the scholarships was more expensive per year but overall would have been cheaper in the long run.

We've always told our kids "pick the college that is right for you and we'll work out the finances later". Now that I have sticker shock, I'm wondering if that was good advice.

Is the career path roughly known?
He's an incoming freshman so chances are he will change his major a half dozen times.
 

Barb

Level 2 Member
@MarkD oops I was reading too fast!

Yeah, agreed that graduating with the equivalent of a house mortgage would be an awful way to start out. Sounds like we are on the same page. We didn't want much debt for our son and in fact, he owes the money to us. He's paid us off faithfully every month, in lump sums probably larger than if he owed a third party and will finish paying it off shortly. Fortunately, he does have a solid, well-paying job so has been able to hit the loan hard. One thing he has realized from the experience is that he potentially can save a significant amount of money if he tries. Useful knowledge, since he is considering grad school and we have told him paying for that is his responsibility.

Luckily he went to a private college with great financial aid that is not repayable. We were able to handle the remainder and we fortunately did not have to take on any debt. When our son was considering colleges, affordability was a key decision point. We even had him pick a university in Canada to apply to as an alternative! (we are from Canada)
 
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Dangjr213

Level 2 Member
Not that you need anymore advice but I agree with those who mention not taking on the extra debt yourself. In my experience at college it seemed as though those of us who paid for our own way through school put forth much more effort than those who had their parents fund.

Maybe your kids are different, so take my comment with a grain of salt... (Plus I don't have kids so my position might change when I do)
 

What The Heck?

Master Blaster
Coming from India, I tend to go with parents paying for the college fees of their children which i find is much better for the society. No kid should be walking out of the college with so much of debt on their shoulders. A parent has more time to save for their kid's education if he/she plans properly. That is what i do for my kid. However, one should not add too much of debt either and feel it as a burden for themselves. Save and use that money and pay only for the college that one can afford. I know it is easier said than done but with some financial responsibility, it is possible.
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
Coming from India, I tend to go with parents paying for the college fees of their children which i find is much better for the society. No kid should be walking out of the college with so much of debt on their shoulders. A parent has more time to save for their kid's education if he/she plans properly. That is what i do for my kid. However, one should not add too much of debt either and feel it as a burden for themselves. Save and use that money and pay only for the college that one can afford. I know it is easier said than done but with some financial responsibility, it is possible.
But if a parent needs to remortgage their home in order to support them? Who is more able to reach a self sufficient state, the parent or child - if one if them could hold the debt?
 

What The Heck?

Master Blaster
But if a parent needs to remortgage their home in order to support them? Who is more able to reach a self sufficient state, the parent or child - if one if them could hold the debt?
In this case i agree. It is better the child takes on the burden. That is why i did say that it is easier said than done. It is going to be different for different people. I understand that. However, if you look it wholistically and not isolate this particular case, wouldnt it be great for the society if most of the students happily walk out of their colleges with degrees rather than debt? Just one generation needs to suffer a bit but the future generations will gain. Also this requires lot of financial discipline and savings mentality (frugal living) right from young age. With these qualities, individual debts will get lower than what it is today. That is the need of the moment. Again, easier said than done.
 

MarkD

Level 2 Member
The alternative side to this discussion is that I am over 50 with 25 years of experience (i.e. a much higher salary than an entry level graduate) and I'm with a company where random layoffs are common place.

Do I really want to take on a second mortgage where the chances of my income going down in the next 5 years is higher than average? We have very little debt on the other hand and good equity in our home to tap into.

Is it too risky?
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
The alternative side to this discussion is that I am over 50 with 25 years of experience (i.e. a much higher salary than an entry level graduate) and I'm with a company where random layoffs are common place.

Do I really want to take on a second mortgage where the chances of my income going down in the next 5 years is higher than average? We have very little debt on the other hand and good equity in our home to tap into.

Is it too risky?
Risk tolerance is a personal choice, cannot decide that for you, but can hopefully explain the situation differently so you can consider the impact.

Firstly, what you are doing here is a generational wealth transfer. My argument is that you do it later, rather than sooner.

If you do it sooner (IE give him the money now so he takes less loans)
  • You reduce his financial burden connected to his education
    • This can make life easier, and seems like a caring thing to do.
    • Life shouldn't always be easy. Many people on full rides from their parents have no buy in to the study. Put a single mom mature student paying their own way up against an entitled kid driving a Porsche. Who works harder?
Not saying your kid is entitled, but he will more susceptible to those traits IMO. Also, to counter that, it might be that due to the workload of raising a family/working and college that the Single Mom may get a lower grade, but that is assuming the other student is putting 100% of their energy into study (doubtful).

When I went to NYU I can see a stark difference between the financial planners who were sent to the course at their employers expense, vs those who were doing it for themselves as career changers.

Next - a Pro for giving today
  • You save money by giving it now. Giving now isn't a bad financial decision on some levels - if you give it now then you take advantage of low interest rates, and he has less loan interest to pay - you'll both be better off here financially by funding his debt via your mortgage in terms of money flowing out of the household.
Risk Risk Risk.

To counter the point on giving now, you increase liability beyond $50K by giving now. If you take this money out of your home equity you place a lien on your home. I understand you feel the risk of unemployment is low, but what if it does happen? The opposite of your point that you are 50 and earning good money is that your kid is not, so they could not go to a bank and ask for an unsecured loan of $50K once student loan deadlines have passed. You are locking money out of your estate, and the risk is that you could lose the property, or sell in a firesale to cover your liens.

Going back to my point on giving now not being a bad financial decision, you can calculate the fixed cash amount of the loan - $50K, you have a spread between the rate he would have paid as a student, and the rate you would pay as a HEL/ 2nd Mortgage. It is likely to be in the 3-4% range, or upto $2000 per year (but may be tax advantaged, so reduced from that).

So that for me is the root of it- is it better to put yourself into debt to save him $2000 per year in interest? What does the $2000 buy?

  • It might create a more lackadaisical attitude to working/studying as there is less pressure.
  • It might create a more pleasant environment for them to flourish in.
The above depends on perspective, and the individual child.

The root of the matter however, is that we are debating a generational wealth transfer, and its timing. I am not saying you absolutely should not pass on wealth, but you can chose the timing of it. I would argue that if you need to take out a 2nd mortgage you aren't in a strong enough financial position right now to help this much today. But you could be in a year or two.

You think you are in a position to repay the debt on your home - so why not hold onto that equity, and allocate the money that you would use to pay down the debt to save for a gift for the kids, or if you decide to sell and downsize your home, release equity there without increasing liability through a lien.

The point being, you still are supporting them 'in life' but you are doing so in a less risky manner AND you are teaching them the value of a dollar in terms of owning their own debt for a while, feeling its pressure and burden, and later lifting it from them when it is safe for you to do so. The result is they will pay out a bit more interest for this lesson.
 
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imMia430

Level 2 Member
Premium Supporter
Hello, I would not suggest to remorgage your home to pay for children's college. My question is, have you exploited all other possibilities to fund your children's education? For example, I would strongly suggest students to take full advantage of the "Work-study" allowance provided in the financial aid package. I think working while you are in college is an important experience and would look nice to future employers. Also, the interest rates and grace periods for student loan as a student, that is, if you child takes the loan, are much more desirable than parents taking the loan. Have you talked to the financial aid office of the school and took a look at the financial aid package they offered? (My personal experience: I went to NYU as an undergrad in 2006, and worked many jobs durng that period ;) I graduated with less than 20k student loan on myself and my parents did not take out any loans. ) If your children takes out "subsidized stafford loan" (may be under some other name nowadays,) the rates are reasonable. And there is no interests accrued during the time they are in school.
 

MarkD

Level 2 Member
...If your children takes out "subsidized stafford loan" (may be under some other name nowadays,) the rates are reasonable. And there is no interests accrued during the time they are in school.
I touched on this above. Stafford loans are capped at $5500 for freshman, $6500 for sophomores, and $7500 for juniors and seniors. We've already received the Stafford loan for my freshman son. Education costs for a UC school in California are about $33K all in per year. If anyone knows of a work study job that pays $27.5K per year then let me know and I'll sign my son up... :p To put this in perspective, my daughter worked part-time as a waitress for two years while attending Junior College and was able to save about $12K for school. My son also worked part time while a senior in high school and saved $3K.

My point was that there is a huge gap in the amount of financial aid offered and the total cost of school for the year. The school fills the 'gap' with a loan called the Parental Plus loan. This is a fixed rate loan at 7.21% for parents - not students. I thought that a better alternative would be a HELOC at a lower interest rate and being tax deductible. We've got the first year parental portion covered with our 529 savings but I'm looking out to years 2, 3, 4.

Information here: https://studentaid.ed.gov/types/loans/plus#am-i-eligible-for
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
My point was that there is a huge gap in the amount of financial aid offered and the total cost of school for the year.
Agreed. Personally I worked FT (50-60hrs perhaps) when in college, but I don't think that is advisable, and there is a huge gap. I think the issue has been narrowed down to:

This is a fixed rate loan at 7.21% for parents - not students. I thought that a better alternative would be a HELOC at a lower interest rate and being tax deductible.
Financially- is it better to take on a lien on your property in order to reduce interest rates? It's not a 'just cheaper' question as risk increases, but it could still be the right choice for you.

Philosophically - is it better to hold the debt or put that burden on your children? A choice for you, based on what you know of them.

Good luck!
 

MarkD

Level 2 Member
I think the issue has been narrowed down to:

Financially- is it better to take on a lien on your property in order to reduce interest rates? It's not a 'just cheaper' question as risk increases, but it could still be the right choice for you.

Philosophically - is it better to hold the debt or put that burden on your children? A choice for you, based on what you know of them.

Good luck!
Thanks! I must say that it is great being able to bounce ideas off others in this forum. I probably would have gone with the HELOC without too much thought but now I'm going to look around at some other options.

On the drive to LA this weekend I rambled on about the two options with both the pros and cons to my wife and son. After me going on and on for about 10 minutes I asked my son what he thought of the whole situation. He said that whatever I decided was fine. In other words, he didn't want to be bothered with the details. He has no idea what financial consequences he's facing in the future other than that he's going to owe someone a lot of money. He was more concerned with what kind of food was being served that night in the dorm cafeteria. o_O
 

credipig

Level 2 Member
For my children, I've always felt it was my responsibility to fund a good portion of their college expense. I have 3 children. One is in the Air Force Academy right now. The other 2 will be starting college over the next 3 years.

I saved a nice sum for them in Education Savings Accounts. While this won't cover their entire expense, it should ensure they get started with college, and go on to graduate. That really was my goal. As someone who joined the military right after high school, I wanted them to have the opportunities I did not.
 

MarkD

Level 2 Member
I started the student loan process for my kids a week ago. (read the thread above for history) This is going to be real fun...

We're still loan shopping. Today we received 11 pieces of mail from SunTrust. Yes - 11. Four of these were credit reports - two for me and one each for my son and daughter. The other 7 were letters telling us we'd been pre-approved and to finish our loan app (I co-signed for both) for $25K each.

I was worried about my 19 year-old son who was turned down for his only credit card (he is an AU on one of my CCs). It turns out that his credit score was 749 on TU and he received an offer for a fixed rate of 6.7% (immediate repayment over 7 years) among other options. My 20 year-old daughter's credit score was 721 but she received an offer of a fixed 5.9% (immediate repayment over 7 years). My daughter has had a CC for about 6 months but barely uses it and pays the balance immediately. She also is an AU on one of my cards.

So now I'm very confused. The higher credit score got a higher loan rate for the exact same loan. Could it be that my 19 year-old's credit history isn't long enough? My daughter also had significantly more income than my son over the past two years.
 

ElainePDX

Level 2 Member
I thought that when you have two in college at the same time that there are more financial aid opportunities because the family income is split in half. At least I thought that was how it was. My kids were 6.5 years apart so we never could take advantage of it. I assume you have applied for financial aid, no?.... Even with a good income, when two are in college at once it's a huge hit. You might just find you are eligible for some aid.
 

MarkD

Level 2 Member
I thought that when you have two in college at the same time that there are more financial aid opportunities because the family income is split in half. At least I thought that was how it was. My kids were 6.5 years apart so we never could take advantage of it. I assume you have applied for financial aid, no?.... Even with a good income, when two are in college at once it's a huge hit. You might just find you are eligible for some aid.
Unfortunately this isn't the case - at least for us. Our EFC from filling out the FAFSA is around 15000 per kid - so we are expected to personally contribute about $30K per year (an astronomical amount for us) to their college expenses. We're currently contributing about half that as we've got a third at home in high school. This about half of what they owe per year leaving another $30K to fund through other means.

They do get the offers for the secured/unsecured federal loans for $5.5K - $7.5K which they take advantage of. The difference is offered in the form of a parental plus loan at a fixed 7.21%. No thank you. There are many more lower rate private loans available.

Additionally, we applied for a SallieMae loan yesterday as well. The rates are much more competitive coming in at 5.75% for both kids for immediate repayment.
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
Hey @MarkD this is an old thread so I forget if I asked - but if you do have an EFC of $15K how much do you have in 529 now, and is it possible you could find some wiggle room between front loading a 529 plan if you don't have much in there to reduce the EFC?
 

MarkD

Level 2 Member
We've got about $10K left for my son and $6K left for my daughter in our 529s. It was my understanding that the 529 balance only contributes about ~6% to the EFC number - is that correct?

The FAFSA application asks for a total asset number, but it seems to be mostly use income level (which is verified through the IRS and last year's tax information). We haven't been able to get the EFC number to move much at all.
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
We've got about $10K left for my son and $6K left for my daughter in our 529s. It was my understanding that the 529 balance only contributes about ~6% to the EFC number - is that correct?

The FAFSA application asks for a total asset number, but it seems to be mostly use income level (which is verified through the IRS and last year's tax information). We haven't been able to get the EFC number to move much at all.
Yes, you are correct. I was wondering if there was a way to leverage a quick push through but I'm guessing you are in CA? In which case there isn't really.

I guess one way to shift money off the books (but may not be worth the hassle) might be to shove money into your home if you have a mortgage on it. I believe FAFSA doesn't look at home equity, but the CSS Profile does - if you are only dealing with FAFSA then I wonder if you could:

  • Get a Heloc for $50k
  • Pay $50K off your mortgage for savings
  • Use Heloc to replace savings
Kinda risky as it put your savings at the mercy of the heloc company, if they cut you off you'd not have them anymore, but it might be a way to shift assets off the balance sheet?
 

ElainePDX

Level 2 Member
Yes, I see. But I have a feeling that if you had only one in college, then your EFC might be $30K! At least that was how it worked when we went through it. I assume your kids have looked into scholarship help as well? Both of mine received $$ from obscure funds on their campuses. Now they did attend private institutions which might have more funds available.

We found more $$ became available to them as juniors and seniors. My daughter won merit scholarships (given by the college and the department in which she majored, which were granted only to upper classmen). My son got free room and board as a senior for being a resident assistant in a dorm. He also worked p/t every year and one of his first jobs got him started in his career path. Both also tapped into local scholarships that were state/community based for which they applied every year.
 

ElainePDX

Level 2 Member
Another thought - It may be too late for this, since your kids have already started, but others who are reading here may find it helpful. We decided that, to ensure our kids were invested in their education, that they would be responsible for 15% of the bill from the school each year. If they applied for and got a scholarship, that $$ could help cover their share. Ditto for how much it saved us when my S was a resident advisor. Or they could use money they had saved, earned, gotten as gifts, etc. But if the bill from the college was $30,000, they were responsible for $4500.

If they wanted to keep their share low, they could apply to a school where the odds were high that they'd get a merit scholarship on acceptance. As such, the bill from the school and their 15% would be lower. Both chose this route, applying for schools that met their needs but for which they were very qualified. As a result, several admission letters came with merit offers. They ended up at schools they loved and that educated them quite well.

Using this strategy, we were able to get both kids through without having to take out loans. Now they attended college 10-15 years ago, and the picture now may be quite different, with less overall scholarship $$ available and tuition that was high but not yet sky high.. But perhaps it is a strategy that still can work for some other parents.
 

Sunny

Level 2 Member
If they wanted to keep their share low, they could apply to a school where the odds were high that they'd get a merit scholarship on acceptance. As such, the bill from the school and their 15% would be lower. Both chose this route, applying for schools that met their needs but for which they were very qualified. As a result, several admission letters came with merit offers. They ended up at schools they loved and that educated them quite well.
I think this may encourage kids to choose schools that may not be top tier. Ideally, I'd like my children attend the best school they can get into. There is a big difference between a top 10 school and one past the top 100. One material difference is that employers may not recruit from the lower ranked schools.

Personally, I received a small (under $5000) scholarship to a lower ranked school but decided to attend the best school I was admitted to without any scholarship.
 

ElainePDX

Level 2 Member
I think this may encourage kids to choose schools that may not be top tier. Ideally, I'd like my children attend the best school they can get into. There is a big difference between a top 10 school and one past the top 100. One material difference is that employers may not recruit from the lower ranked schools.
This is not the place for such a discussion and I don't really want to debate it, but I will just say that there is l0ts of evidence/data that a motivated student need not attend a top 10 school. Both my kids used this strategy and attended schools that were very highly rated.

My youngest entered in 2005 and graduated in 2009. When he was picking schools, I was active on a forum where parents debated whether it was worth taking a loan enable Junior to attend a high priced top 10 school. I well remember the cavalier comments like:

"My son will get access to the best education, best internships and best job offers and he will make $100,000 in his first year on Wall Street. If a loan must be taken to get there, so be it."

That cohort started college in a booming economy and graduated into the worst economy in years. I occasionally still wonder how many kids were thus saddled with thousands in debt they could have avoided who are now working as baristas.... Meanwhile my son graduated debt free, and the money he made working summers and while in school allowed him to spend about 18 months traveling in South America upon graduation.

Different folks, different strokes.

But I continue to think it best to avoid loans for college whenever possible.I hope your kids can attend the best school they can get into and that they can do it without loans. If I had no other options, I would take a loan out to help put a child through school, but I am grateful we had other options.

Enough said - at least by me!
 

Sesq

Level 2 Member
Another thought - It may be too late for this, since your kids have already started, but others who are reading here may find it helpful. We decided that, to ensure our kids were invested in their education, that they would be responsible for 15% of the bill from the school each year. If they applied for and got a scholarship, that $$ could help cover their share.
This is an interesting approach Elaine. I am saving for my kids (9&6) now, and while my parent's covered my entire tab (including a year in grad school), my wife got help through undergrad but she largely paid for her 3 years at grad school (well, after marriage I took out the remaining student loans within a month or two).

I have friends who went to state school or did the 2 years community college, two years at the 4 year school (which issues the diploma) and achieved great results. I am very interested in teaching my kids the value of a dollar, and that absent luck you need to earn it. My wife and I have been toying with different approaches to come up with incentives for them to include cost in their decision making process, and incentivize them to get a scholarship if they can. Your 15% share with scholarship/work offset may be a solution worth looking at. I have thought of giving them a budget (based on what we have saved at that point), and thought they can weigh how much they want to spend. I think the default would be the remainder is left for grad school, but if they choose to not pursue that I'd consider ways to eventually cash them out (or dare to dream let them elect to save it for their kids).

I appreciate the idea.

I would probably push the more expensive MIT over State U if that kind of value debate arose.

My budget idea scares me a bit, since the numbers are already astronomical and I am not sure how they would handle it. That said, in my college clerking job I'd prepare invoices that were over 100K. When I mentioned how crazy this was to me to my father his response was "just wait till you start working with numbers greater than your lifetime earnings."
 
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