Reader Case Study - PFR Can we retire early?

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
Age = 40
Marital Status = Married, No Kids
Income = $100k
Income Spouse = $65k
Residency = GA
Expenses =$3800/mo

Assets
  • Emergency Fund = is this savings?
  • Checking = $1k
  • Savings =$75k
  • Roth IRA = none. no 401k
  • Roth IRA Spouse = none, has a 401k ($140K)
  • Home Value = $150k
  • Car 1 = $9k
  • Car 2 = $5k
Liabilities
  • Mortgage = $100k (4.1%)
  • Credit Card Debt = none
  • Car loan = none
Goals
  • Pay off house (currently paying a double monthly mortgage payment)
  • Figure out what to invest in
  • Plan for retirement
  • Live on the lesser salary so one person can quit working
Risk Tolerance/ Financial Savvy

I am not afraid to take a risk as long as it is a smart calculated risk. Spouse is afraid of risk.

If the market dropped 20%. I would lean towards doubling down and buy while the market is low. Spouse would get out.
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
The above has been posted by me on behalf of a reader here, I will add my own comments to it when I get a spare moment! In the meantime things I'd like to highlight would be:

  • Zero retirement funds for the OP, $140K for spouse
  • Low debt- only a mortgage, which they are paying off at double rate)
  • Very large savings account balance
  • No Investment accounts
There is a major concern with the risk tolerance of the spouse. Any plan that is proposed would require full buy in from them else it would likely fail (or cause considerable stress) in the event of a bear market.
 

Paul

Level 2 Member
Agreed. However the answer I'm sure everyone is looking for is rather: how long and what will it take?
I presume they'll need over $1MM in liquid assets to live a somewhat comfortable life to their early 80s where the actuarial tables put them. That's not living a life of luxury.

They've got about $210K liquid assets. Assume they can earn 3% (which is reasonable considering their current conservative asset mix). Assuming they aggressively save $50K a year - would take another 12 years to get to ~$1MM. With strong discipline, it's doable. But I suspect life will get in the way and they won't be able to save that aggressively. If they save $30K/yr @ 3%, will have to work another 17 years to get to that $1MM range. That would put them at 57 and that's ~9 years early retirement.

I am assuming they pay off their mortgage and retire debt free.
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
Some more thoughts on this case:

I really want to focus on the difference of risk tolerance between the couple. This is a matter that really needs addressing - it should be thought of as like a counseling session, and the format of the PFR here online is insufficient to deal with it.

I talk a lot about virtualization (akin database normalization for techies out there) of assets. We name things 'retirement account' 'emergency funds', 'checking' / 'savings' etc but we must also remember first and foremost it is total family wealth, and total asset allocation.

This is important when we consider a family unit that has differences of opinions regarding risk - because the overall financial plan needs to be able to weather external changes. For example, if one person is buying the market and another is selling it during the same event, overall the actions cancel one another out. For cases like this I would propose finding an asset allocation that both people can agree to, and an investment policy based on that that both will follow.

For example. If the spouse here would sell in a bear market - it means that they are already over exposed to equities and should adjust downwards now - to a place where they would see a buying opportunity. Logic dictates that bear markets are buying opportunities, and bull market selling opportunities - the trick is to align emotional reactions to loss so that people can follow that pattern.

I know many will say it is hard to be emotionless with your money, but there is a way. For example, if you look at the $140K 401(k) balance today, and reallocated it to $130K T-Bills and $10K Equities - if the market dropped 50% it's likely that the spouse wouldn't panic and sell - in fact they might want to buy. The key is finding what that mix is today, so that they are comfortable with it in the future.

Going back to what I said about 'virtualization' you might find (for example) that 401(k) allocation becomes 50/50 bonds/equities. However, if the OP has gone on to invest some of that $75K in cash to equities, the spouse might suddenly feel overexposed again, and react emotionally - it is key that there is alignment across accounts for total asset allocation.

Present investible Asset Allocation
  • 76K Cash
  • 140K (unknown)
Clearly too much money is residing in Savings at this time. As the Spouse is conservative, lets allocated 6 months of Emergency Funds (EF). Note that this is not 6 x $3800 as the $3800 includes a double mortgage payment, savings and fun money. In truth, we should have a better breakdown of actual expenses here in order to spot opportunities. However, going on what we have, the OP can multiply out their actual EF needs, which might ballpark around $2500?

That would give us $60K to invest. I would suggest that both load up 2014 and 2015 Roths (for simplicity, I would just load in everything in the new year, for a $22K investment) this would allow the funds to grow tax free until retirement age.

Other retirement questions - with a 100K salary it would seem odd that there isn't a 401(k) option available? Is it just that the OP didn't want to invest, or some other reason (You can PM me the answer)

  • The asset allocation for both the new Roths and the existing 401(k) should be examined and you should find a comfortable place regarding risk.
Goals:
  • Pay off house (currently paying a double monthly mortgage payment) - this is an emotional decision - paying off your house when you have no other investments to speak of may not be the wisest use of your money, but if it makes you feel comfortable then go for it. Paying double is a good way to achieve this. You could also throw in the remaining $38K if your really want to pay it down fast.
  • Figure out what to invest in - this is very tough. It requires alignment, and I'll elaborate below.
  • Plan for retirement - Live on the lesser salary so one person can quit working - I combined these two, as they work against one another. Let's realign the terms: 'quits working = retirement'. Therefore if one of you retires today, the other one will have to work longer in order to build up the total savings for your own retirement. Based on the data you have given one of you certainly could 'retire' today, but it would mean the other would have to work that much longer. If you took that route I would recommend Life insurance on the worker, since the person who leaves the workforce may find it difficult to return in the event of something happening to the breadwinner (harder to employ due to the career gap etc).
What to invest in:

So, here's the thing: very basically speaking more risk = more reward in an efficient market. Therefore perhaps the best way to decide your risk is to model out what that ROR would do to your saving goal. As @Paul mentioned above, if you were looking for a 3% ROR then:

$200K in assets (401K+$60K) * 3% *12 years = $1MM. Providing you add $50K per year to that.

The $1MM number may not be what you are seeking, but if you had it, you could withdraw enough to cover your monthly costs for years to come, with a very high success ratio that you would never run out of money. The question of what you actually need in terms of a number comes down to really breaking down your monthly expenses (needs more clarity) and once you have it you have a more accurate goal.

To give perspective, if you were instead to invest at 8% ROR you could achieve the $1MM goal in just 9 years rather than 12.

The goal for you both is to decide what you will really need in terms of income to maintain your retired lifestyle, and then decide how many years you want to work for it. If the answer is that you want to quit (or one of you quit) early then you need more risk to cover that, but of course you need to be comfortable with the risk in bad times, not just in the good times.
 

JoeK

Level 2 Member
Matt, I think you hit the nail on the head with your statement that if the spouse wants to sell in a bear market, it means they are holding too high a % in equities.

People should be buying, buying, buying, and not selling until they are fully financially independent/retired. Buying high and selling during bear markets is one of the key reasons the average investor underperforms the indexes.

As you said, they need to find an asset mix they are both comfortable with and would both continue to be comfortable buying/holding even if the stock market took another 50% plunge similar to 2008-09.

We can't fully address the question of "can we retire early?" in the above case study without knowing more about their spending habits, are there unnecessary expenses, what is their current standard of living? However, I agree with your initial breakdown and think it provides a good start for them to start evaluating this.
 

thorax

Level 90 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Warlock
Sorry I forgot about this sub forum, but have questions/comments about this post.
I presume they'll need over $1MM in liquid assets to live a somewhat comfortable life to their early 80s where the actuarial tables put them. That's not living a life of luxury.

They've got about $210K liquid assets. Assume they can earn 3% (which is reasonable considering their current conservative asset mix). Assuming they aggressively save $50K a year - would take another 12 years to get to ~$1MM. With strong discipline, it's doable. But I suspect life will get in the way and they won't be able to save that aggressively. If they save $30K/yr @ 3%, will have to work another 17 years to get to that $1MM range. That would put them at 57 and that's ~9 years early retirement.

I am assuming they pay off their mortgage and retire debt free.
I think we all hear that "$1M in retirement will never be enough" mantra pretty regularly. I find that statement really hard to believe. If we use the 4% withdraw rule, that leaves them over $3000 a month to spend on... stuff (going with your same assumption that the home is paid off). Maybe I'm frugal and live in a cheaper area of the country, but I'm pretty sure that I could retire on that and live pretty well on that, especially with Obamacare making my health insurance rates artificially low. Am I crazy here?
 

El Ingeniero

Level 2 Member
Sorry I forgot about this sub forum, but have questions/comments about this post.

I think we all hear that "$1M in retirement will never be enough" mantra pretty regularly. I find that statement really hard to believe. If we use the 4% withdraw rule, that leaves them over $3000 a month to spend on... stuff (going with your same assumption that the home is paid off). Maybe I'm frugal and live in a cheaper area of the country, but I'm pretty sure that I could retire on that and live pretty well on that, especially with Obamacare making my health insurance rates artificially low. Am I crazy here?
4% rule is a crock of what makes the roses grow.
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
Sorry I forgot about this sub forum, but have questions/comments about this post.

I think we all hear that "$1M in retirement will never be enough" mantra pretty regularly. I find that statement really hard to believe. If we use the 4% withdraw rule, that leaves them over $3000 a month to spend on... stuff (going with your same assumption that the home is paid off). Maybe I'm frugal and live in a cheaper area of the country, but I'm pretty sure that I could retire on that and live pretty well on that, especially with Obamacare making my health insurance rates artificially low. Am I crazy here?
I read the post you quoted as saying $1M is a goal - so that is agreeing with you, but you word your reply as though it does not?

The 4% rule isn't enough IMO. It has certain value, but lacks sophistication. That doesn't mean it isn't a good goal to aim for 25x income.

A couple of important factors: The 4% rule doesn't allow for fluctuating markets. Therefore, if you had kicked off retirement in say 2010 with $1M and pulled out 4% per year your $1M would be a lot more than today, however it would also slump back down again. The key is being able to take more out when it is up, and less when down (IE don't sell cheap) Instead, it you pulled $300-500K out of the fund over the past 4 years or so, and held cash - when the market drops you have the option to buy low (DCA) or just burn cash and not sell low. That makes it a winner.

Also, retirement itself is so hard to generalize. For example, if two people both have $3K per month expenses, and both have their homes paid off, are their homes the same value? Could there be another $600K in home equity here? What if Person A has a $400K primary residence and a $200K cash flowing investment property plus the 1M, vs $600K primary residence only?

There's a lot of pieces of the puzzle.

Overall though, if I were nearing retirement age with $1M in a retirement account I'd not be too upset by it.
 

stellar

Level 2 Member
Sorry I forgot about this sub forum, but have questions/comments about this post.

I think we all hear that "$1M in retirement will never be enough" mantra pretty regularly. I find that statement really hard to believe. If we use the 4% withdraw rule, that leaves them over $3000 a month to spend on... stuff (going with your same assumption that the home is paid off). Maybe I'm frugal and live in a cheaper area of the country, but I'm pretty sure that I could retire on that and live pretty well on that, especially with Obamacare making my health insurance rates artificially low. Am I crazy here?
I had similar thoughts. MMM (mr. money mustache) says you can have about $625k to live on $25k/year.
 

thorax

Level 90 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Warlock
I read the post you quoted as saying $1M is a goal - so that is agreeing with you, but you word your reply as though it does not?

The 4% rule isn't enough IMO. It has certain value, but lacks sophistication. That doesn't mean it isn't a good goal to aim for 25x income.

A couple of important factors: The 4% rule doesn't allow for fluctuating markets. Therefore, if you had kicked off retirement in say 2010 with $1M and pulled out 4% per year your $1M would be a lot more than today, however it would also slump back down again. The key is being able to take more out when it is up, and less when down (IE don't sell cheap) Instead, it you pulled $300-500K out of the fund over the past 4 years or so, and held cash - when the market drops you have the option to buy low (DCA) or just burn cash and not sell low. That makes it a winner.

Also, retirement itself is so hard to generalize. For example, if two people both have $3K per month expenses, and both have their homes paid off, are their homes the same value? Could there be another $600K in home equity here? What if Person A has a $400K primary residence and a $200K cash flowing investment property plus the 1M, vs $600K primary residence only?

There's a lot of pieces of the puzzle.

Overall though, if I were nearing retirement age with $1M in a retirement account I'd not be too upset by it.
The 4% rule doesn't allow for a fluctuating market when you take out more during a bull run and less in a bear market. In that, you are correct. The idea, as I understand, it is that you take 4% at maximum. In bull markets, you'll end up making money. In bear markets, you can withdraw the same 4%, or maybe cut a few corners and only take out 3%. It's not a hard set, mindless rule obviously. The market is a living breathing beast, but I see no reason why this "rule" can't generally work.
 
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