El Ingeniero
Level 2 Member
How would they ever know? Looks like a browser, acts like a browser, smells like a browser. Throw in enough jitter and randomness in your timing to look like a human, and you'll be OK.
Gaming the system
- Thread starter Matt
- Start date
El Ingeniero
Level 2 Member
Agreed. I got in on #AmexStaples this time around by sheer blind luck. I'd say I'm above average: got 18 cards synced to twitter and hooked up to Tweetdeck. Getting serious now though, going to set up 20 more AU cards. 22 more would be nice, an even round 40 would have let me do 30x$200 for Smart & Final.
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I'm a big fan of gaming the system in the sense of finding opportunities for optimization which are otherwise complex and hidden. I do agree that the financial and tax system in the US is a mess, and it is a mess by design for profiteering.
But I do see a difference when it comes to gaming 'everyone' because at some point there must be cohesion in order to elevate to the next level. For example, you don't rob (hopefully) from your own family, but you might from another. There is the concept of an ever expanding circle of influence, I would extend that to being a circle of kindness, and if you are inside it I would do what I can to help you.
BuddyFunJet
Level 2 Member
To help a non programmer become a "script kiddie", would you post a resource on how to do what you said?
I'm not so interested in Emirates but would sure like to know how to do it for a search I do want.
Thanks for your consideration
jmw
Level 2 Member
In general, I'm kind. But I've found a few in the MS community to be less deserving of that kindness and I've found that most of the famous MS folks are not deserving of that kindness and are part of the same corrupt profiteering that happens in corporations and government. The worst are bow tie and other bloggers who either prohibit talk of portal links or push inferior credit card affiliate links. How many crappy Amazon deals is **n going to post so that I accidentally end up with his Amazon cookie so that he gets rewarded for deals I found on my own or from someone else? Posting crappy Amazon deals is a form of deception. How fast do my posts get censored when I mention you can get it cheaper from Costco? Same thing with linkshare and CJ cookies to other stores. How about the overpriced FTUs. But here is another example that doesn't involve bloggers:
Too many in the MS community don't have a problem with hogging Kate for 20 minutes to unload 200s. I've seen people push 500s to above $10k and accidentally break her in the process while I'm watching from McDonalds. They often have 8+ birds. There is another non-MS person waiting for a while behind you. The hoggers just screwed over their fellow man. That's why Kate breaks so often. I let that non-MS guy go when I notice for two reasons:
1) I don't want store managers to notice a line behind me and it slows down the velocity.
2) I'm a human being.
If you don't choose #2, at least choose #1 due to an instinct for self preservation.
The Flyertalk MS forum is another pet peeve. Where is my cut of the Adsense and other ad revenue in exchange for killing deals like HIGC? I haven't seen my check from Internet Brands. I don't blame the multiple groups that kick threads down and hide deals. Outright lying crosses my line, but I understand why that happens too.
I'm having a lot of trouble swallowing the talk about kindness to others. If we were talking about a truly homeless guy begging for change on the street, I'd have a lot less trouble with it.
Andrew Beall
Level 2 Member
I automate through IFTTT, but I only have a few Amex cards. I don't want to deal with a ton of AU cards. For those that do, more power to you though. I suppose I could too if I wanted to, I just choose to focus on other areas.
BuddyFunJet
Level 2 Member
I 'm a reluctant, guilty automator of about 25 cards. I just wish there was a way to share my excess registrations. I got way too many Dell syncs and am sorry to see them go to waste.
Haven't come up with a system that works for both sides.
Haven't come up with a system that works for both sides.
Barefootwoman
Level 2 Member
Very interesting thread. Seems to me the overarching question is more of a philosophical one.
Like it or not, our economic framework stems from capitalism. Maybe we need a refresher on it. In a capitalist system, anything goes until someone leaks it to the mainstream media. As purple squirrel so astutely pointed out (prize for being first! lol) this is a zero sum game. For-profit entities have only one obligation and let me put it in bold type: to return value to the owners or shareholders
Every day, all day long, people are paid to sit around devising new and increasingly clever ways to separate you from the contents of your wallet. No one seems to have a dispute with this part. The Supreme Court has even ruled that corporations can enjoy some of the very same constitutional rights enjoyed by human beings.
Ok, so that brings us to the rights and obligations of the individual consumer - the party on the other end of the transaction. Right off the bat, that consumer is at a disadvantage - he/she doesn't know if a price is fair, unless it has been commoditized in the marketplace. The consumer doesn't enjoy the rights and privileges of the corporation because he/she doesn't have a team of lawyers on hand to protect his/her interests. The consumer doesn't lobby Congress to further its interests in the way that corporations do.
So, should we feel sorry for corporations because consumers are playing the game they set us up to play? Me, I don't have a problem. If I did, I wouldn't be participating in this forum. Given what we know about capitalism, it seems a bit hypocritical to have an ethical problem while at the same time discussing ways to exploit it for your own advantage.
Lastly, there is the issue brought to light by Matt of the people who don't have the means to utilize credit to their advantage. I donate time and money to charitable organizations that support low income people. I look for ways to help them become or stay employed.
This is my choice and fits in with my personal ethics and values.
If playing with corporations leaves you feeling dirty, it's probably time to get out to save your soul. I don't see our economic system undergoing any radical changes anytime soon.
Peace.
Like it or not, our economic framework stems from capitalism. Maybe we need a refresher on it. In a capitalist system, anything goes until someone leaks it to the mainstream media. As purple squirrel so astutely pointed out (prize for being first! lol) this is a zero sum game. For-profit entities have only one obligation and let me put it in bold type: to return value to the owners or shareholders
Every day, all day long, people are paid to sit around devising new and increasingly clever ways to separate you from the contents of your wallet. No one seems to have a dispute with this part. The Supreme Court has even ruled that corporations can enjoy some of the very same constitutional rights enjoyed by human beings.
Ok, so that brings us to the rights and obligations of the individual consumer - the party on the other end of the transaction. Right off the bat, that consumer is at a disadvantage - he/she doesn't know if a price is fair, unless it has been commoditized in the marketplace. The consumer doesn't enjoy the rights and privileges of the corporation because he/she doesn't have a team of lawyers on hand to protect his/her interests. The consumer doesn't lobby Congress to further its interests in the way that corporations do.
So, should we feel sorry for corporations because consumers are playing the game they set us up to play? Me, I don't have a problem. If I did, I wouldn't be participating in this forum. Given what we know about capitalism, it seems a bit hypocritical to have an ethical problem while at the same time discussing ways to exploit it for your own advantage.
Lastly, there is the issue brought to light by Matt of the people who don't have the means to utilize credit to their advantage. I donate time and money to charitable organizations that support low income people. I look for ways to help them become or stay employed.
This is my choice and fits in with my personal ethics and values.
If playing with corporations leaves you feeling dirty, it's probably time to get out to save your soul. I don't see our economic system undergoing any radical changes anytime soon.
Peace.
MilesJunkie
Level 1.66 Member
In 3...2...1...waiting for somebody's rant (that somehow got deleted) for those of us who have double digit cards to use for Amex sync deals... LOL
Just glanced through the thread and don't see anything deleted. Or really any rants.
MilesJunkie
Level 1.66 Member
Amex Sync Offers thread actually. I saw it early Thursday morning but it's gone now. Maybe OP must have thought better of it.
No idea - I know I don't delete 'rants' nor do the other members of the team here. People may write something that they later decide to edit, which is fine IMO.
MilesJunkie
Level 1.66 Member
Cool. My apologies, Matt.
Barefootwoman
Level 2 Member
Add me to the list too, please
Andrew Beall
Level 2 Member
I don't do it because I just don't want to deal with it. I've got no problem with anyone's MS methods though. We're all breaking someone's T&Cs, it's kind of the point.
Not for me. The point I like to chase is learning what the terms are, and finding a win without breaking them.
jmw
Level 2 Member
I couldn't care less about the T&C. I couldn't care less about driving 68 MPH in a 65 zone as long as there is no cop. I couldn't care less if my neighbor lit up a joint (as long as he offered to share) and there were no children around. I couldn't care less if I told the doctor there is a family history of XYZ to get a test even though I was lying to get past the treatment guidelines. I cheated while playing skeeball before they put up the cages. No T&C at the arcade said I couldn't throw the ball in 3 feet away, although we all know this is cheating. I think it's a great idea for gays to get married back when it was illegal. I think a few laws are too lame to follow, and T&C are even easier to roll over. But don't steal 49 cent gum from a store or do anything else that might land you in jail with a misdemeanor. Everything else is in the gray area.
There are numerous threads in here that violate T&C. The Amex checkout is not working as intended in the T&C (supposedly 1 per online account). Level 2 is full of deals that are not supposed to apply to gift cards. Bonus abuse is now in the T&C, but we still do it anyway.
Some things are obvious cheating like my skee ball example such as botting for Amex Sync, even if it is not explictly prohibited in the T&C. If your chosen religion says cheating is wrong, we're all gong to hell. Yes, I cheat. There. Done.
This has been an interesting discussion, and I like seeing other viewpoints even though I don't agree with some of them.
There are numerous threads in here that violate T&C. The Amex checkout is not working as intended in the T&C (supposedly 1 per online account). Level 2 is full of deals that are not supposed to apply to gift cards. Bonus abuse is now in the T&C, but we still do it anyway.
Some things are obvious cheating like my skee ball example such as botting for Amex Sync, even if it is not explictly prohibited in the T&C. If your chosen religion says cheating is wrong, we're all gong to hell. Yes, I cheat. There. Done.
This has been an interesting discussion, and I like seeing other viewpoints even though I don't agree with some of them.
Annie H.
Egalatarian
I 've never before heard of anyone else doing this. It's interesting how we each rationalize our "illegal behavior" and this is an interesting discussion. I kind of blanched at the beginning though when Matt said something to the effect of "don't steal from your family but perhaps another family?" These days when everyone makes up their own rules it's pretty hard to follow the ones in place.
This comes across as a weird concept and it really requires more explanation that I can give here. Basically, I'm trying to say that if you are reduced to an animalistic level, you might (I might..) put my own family above another person. I may steal food for their survival, if we were in some weird place where there was no other option.
But what I'm trying to say there is that once perhaps it was just you, and you might steal for you. And then it may be you and a child, and you might steal for them.
And then, it might be that you believe you aren't in such a crazy extreme, and instead help other families find ways to eat.
Another example might be that if attacked in an alley I might on one occasion simply defend myself with no care for the assailant, and another time may try to help the assailant exit safely.
As you grow, and that circle/sphere grows with you I think more people become the family, it goes beyond the child and into 'fellow man' and you start to become focused on helping a greater society.
Its an odd concept perhaps..
Andrew Beall
Level 2 Member
In the end everyone acts in their own interest because it is in their interest. If you doing something "good" for you're still getting something out of it, whether it's high and mighty/holier than thou feelings, self satisfaction, approval of others, etc. You can't escape self-interest. Self-interest is subjective. No one does what is "right" because it is right. They do it when there is a strong enough incentive to do so or strong enough disincentive for doing otherwise. Some laws, rules, etc. are silly. The only real considerations are the potential consequences and probability of being caught. There is no need to "rationalize" your own behavior.
Barefootwoman
Level 2 Member
jmw brought up ethics, i.e. what's legal is not always ethical.
So I'm sitting in coach flying on a ticket I paid $300 for. The guy in the seat next to me paid $900 for the same ticket.
It's legal to charge him more - but is it ethical?
If a blogger touts and receives compensation (even if indirectly) for methods that violate T&Cs, is that ethical?
Where are the lines here? I wonder how each here would define them.
So I'm sitting in coach flying on a ticket I paid $300 for. The guy in the seat next to me paid $900 for the same ticket.
It's legal to charge him more - but is it ethical?
If a blogger touts and receives compensation (even if indirectly) for methods that violate T&Cs, is that ethical?
Where are the lines here? I wonder how each here would define them.
If we are going to discuss philosophy (everyone acting in one's own interest sounds like a philosopher whose ideas have leeched into the political of late), it would be prudent to recognize that there are many cultures and many philosophies. This individual every man for himself is very Western, and not the center tenant in much of the rest of the world. Spend some time in Japan where the culture is collective and see that the philosophy is quite in contrast to this Western one. If we are going to see the world via travel, we need to integrate other ways of being into our thinking too.
Annie H.
Egalatarian
I'm sorry you are so jaded. You cannot speak for me, you cannot speak for *everyone* or as you put it "no one." I grew up an athiest/Unitarian and was constantly asked why I "had to be good"-- if god wasn't watching me. I'm not judging you, "The only real considerations are the potential consequences and probability of being caught" (this is opinoin, not fact, perhaps it is your philosophy and the way *you* act) please do not judge me, my motives or my behavior.
Annie H.
Egalatarian
Unless you're an Ayn Rand devotee, I think I get what you're saying
- and because of what you demonstrateu. Hard for me as a child of the 60s, raised from birth to focus on helping a greater society to "grok"-- all for one, society be damned.Andrew Beall
Level 2 Member
Why do you do what you consider to be "good"?
When most people see someone suffering, in distress, etc. they experience unpleasant feelings themselves. Doing good is a way to reduce these unpleasant feelings for themselves. Altruism is simply self interest in disguise. Why do people give money to beggars? Are they uncomfortable seeing them suffer? Do they experience negative feelings that are somewhat relieved by helping that person?
I'm arguing that it IS a fact that all individuals are self interested, not merely my own opinion. We're arguing about what self interest means. Anything you do to help someone else that makes you feel good is ultimately still a selfish act.
derek
Level 2 Member
while charity is arguable. I always use the example of a Soldier who identifies a grenade, the threat to his peers (people he may or may not like) and willingly sacrifices his life to save them knowing he will get no reward (to say he is trying to earn a medal is naive at best). I'm interested in how that soldier is acting in self interest in those scenarios
PurpleSquirrel
MS Nuts
I'm going to use some East Indian terminology here. Google the terms for precise definitions.
Prakriti (nature) - You sow the seeds, raise plants, make your bread and eat it.
Vikriti (imbalance) - A person doesn't do any of the above but tries to steal bread from others.
Sanskriti (culture) - You share your bread with others.
Which one are you?
Prakriti (nature) - You sow the seeds, raise plants, make your bread and eat it.
Vikriti (imbalance) - A person doesn't do any of the above but tries to steal bread from others.
Sanskriti (culture) - You share your bread with others.
Which one are you?
Andrew Beall
Level 2 Member
I would still argue the soldier is acting in self interest; he just has a different set of values, priorities, etc. maybe he is religious and believes he will get some reward in the next life or punishment for failing to act. Maybe he feels he won't be able to live with himself if he allows his friends to live (assuming he has a chance to survive). He might believe he's going to die no matter what, so why not be remembered as a hero? Maybe he just has such overwhelming emotions in that moment that he gets some sort of self satisfaction in that brief moment knowing he is saving his friends life.while charity is arguable. I always use the example of a Soldier who identifies a grenade, the threat to his peers (people he may or may not like) and willingly sacrifices his life to save them knowing he will get no reward (to say he is trying to earn a medal is naive at best). I'm interested in how that soldier is acting in self esteem interest in those scenarios
While people can appear to be acting selflessly since they may not be getting anything tangible in return for their actions, I would argue that the reasoning for any act is ultimately selfish at its root.
This is just not true.
Barefootwoman
Level 2 Member
Of course different cultures have different philosophies, that's a given. I thought that we here were having a discussion stemming from Matt's original question about gaming the system in the U.S.
Barefootwoman
Level 2 Member
This is just not true.
Why do you think it's not true?
Why do you think it's not true?
Barefootwoman
Level 2 Member
Could it be instinctual? like those reports of people (not firefighters) running into a fire to rescue a stranger's pet or child? I think there are a few flavors of this. (eg altruism) - but ultimately some could also call this the "hero complex"while charity is arguable. I always use the example of a Soldier who identifies a grenade, the threat to his peers (people he may or may not like) and willingly sacrifices his life to save them knowing he will get no reward (to say he is trying to earn a medal is naive at best). I'm interested in how that soldier is acting in self interest in those scenarios
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The market collapse was caused by the real estate bubble which was caused by the Fed pumping billions of dollars into the real estate market, the mortgage companies like Countrywide making subprime loans, and those loans then being securitized and packaged as investment grade quality.
Barefootwoman
Level 2 Member
Yes, I understand that part. MHY's point was that if penalties for not paying debt were more severe, the situation might have turned out differently and I agree with that assessment.