Gaming the system

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
Travel Hacking is a term that a lot of members here know, some argue with the term, but it works well enough for me. I'd like to think that the Saverocity concept goes beyond this, and a more accurate term might be ''gamers. We aren't blinkered by looking at travel in isolation, but how that aspect of our lives, both in terms of budget and in terms of experience, can dovetail with the broader picture.

Gaming is something that troubles me as a concept. Last night I chatted with Saianel and the Doctor about a transaction that occurred in Walmart. A person was paying $9.50 to send $50 to their daughter (who did not have a SSN).

Let's go worst case and assume the person was an illegal immigrant. There's a huge argument to be had about immigration, but I'd like to let it slide for now, barring the broader picture - should a corporation be allowed to 'game' an immigrant because they have little to no other options?

On one level, it is very 'American' to take the capitalist view of profiting from this situation, but is it proper?

That takes me onto the way that we game. I know that many might say it is OK to game the big corporations because they are exploiting the weak, be it a bank, or Walmart in this case, but are we hiding behind excuses here and simply finding a justification for our habits?

Gaming is broader than travel hacking. My view on it has been that providing that I act legally I will exploit beneficial rules - an example might be the manner in which Traditional IRAs and Roth IRAs work together, because of the rules, I've managed to really come out ahead here. But am I gaming the government now, and does that cause harm?

The problem of course comes down to rife corruption in the government, where they accept kickbacks for allowing rules for the wealthy. So again, it is easy for me to 'justify' my actions.. but are they proper?

In the broadest sense, if everyone is gaming everyone then I think that spells for long term disaster for a society. But how can one stop?

When it comes to a Walmart, people might say 'this is why I don't mind gaming them' but what good does that do for the immigrant? If anything, people gaming Walmart might lower profits, and the person to suffer will again be the immigrant. In this game it is always going to be the least educated that suffers the most.

This is the same with a credit card company - people justify gaming them because they are 'bad companies' but if the gaming hits profits, it must be replaced by increased fees and APRs on the less fortunate. Certainly, we might be stripping some profit from the company, but in reality the money flows from the uneducated/in debt/struggling people to the banks and is somewhat diverted by a gamer. So aren't we leaching from the weak, not the strong?

What if we educated the weak to teach them to avoid fees, and be smarter with their money? If it could be successful, the flow of money to the bank would decrease, and ultimately there would be less profit to pay out, and we would be harmed.

At what point can we make a decision to help others, even if doing so may harm ourselves?
 

Alex1432

Level 2 Member
If everyone stopped gaming Walmart tomorrow do you think that cost for the money order would come down?

I think the less educated have been getting the short end of the stick for awhile now in terms of wages and general financial well being. I am not sure hacking Walmart or the banks has been the cause of this trend. I don't have a solution just an observation.
 

MickiSue

Level 2 Member
I think that this is not a Yes, but, situation. It's a Yes, and.

Yes, it's ok to game the system, if you always do it legally and ethically.

AND it's important to do whatever you can to help less educated people understand ways to hang on to more of their own money.

Give reuseable, sturdy shopping bags to people who live in food deserts, and push the local transit authority to offer more buses that stop in those neighborhoods as well as right in front of big, more economical grocery stores. They'll eat better and for less money.

An idea I've been tossing around in my head, but am not able to figure out how to implement is something similar to a micro loan organization. It would give micro loans, at low interest, and also, at 1% less interest, pay on deposits, similar to a bank, but with a much much narrower spread. There would be no minimum balance for the savings side. If the org is big enough, and the business on both sides brisk enough, the 1% could cover costs as well as generate a small profit.

Given that those at or near the minimum wage have no way to take advantage of the kinds of interest on investment that the rest of us do, being able to earn, say, 1.5%, instead of .02% would make an incentive to save something, even if it's $10/month. It creates a habit. Given that most banks offer only the tiny interest rate AND impose fees on accounts that are under a certain threshold in size, there is no incentive at all to save, there.
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
Given that those at or near the minimum wage have no way to take advantage of the kinds of interest on investment that the rest of us do, being able to earn, say, 1.5%, instead of .02% would make an incentive to save something, even if it's $10/month. It creates a habit.
This exists, I read it somewhere in the past. It might be a trial or city specific but the APRs were even more generous IIRC.
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
If everyone stopped gaming Walmart tomorrow do you think that cost for the money order would come down?

I think the less educated have been getting the short end of the stick for awhile now in terms of wages and general financial well being. I am not sure hacking Walmart or the banks has been the cause of this trend. I don't have a solution just an observation.
In theory it should, in reality it wouldn't. But I am not keen on this line of thinking because its admitting that the event is wrong, but doing it anyway because it seems not to matter. It reminds me of voter apathy.
 

Panache

Level 2 Member
I too have long shunned using CCs and just jumped into the hobby, even though I'd always read of the mint and yogurt cup deals of years ago as it is clear the Banks have to make their money somewhere and I've seen many friends and relatives get caught in CC debt traps.

One question I have is whether we all pay inflated retail prices so that retailers can cover the (by many accounts onerous) CC swipe fees and cards the fraud costs. This clearly affects those who pay cash, mainly the less well to do.

I know in many (most?) countries paying cash is still king and paying with a card at say a B&B incurs in a substantial surcharge. I'm sure the CC point gravy train would stop the minute retailers started charging more for card transactions.
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
One question I have is whether we all pay inflated retail prices so that retailers can cover the (by many accounts onerous) CC swipe fees and cards the fraud costs. This clearly affects those who pay cash, mainly the less well to do.
Merchant fees and reward programs generate an implicit monetary transfer to credit card users from non-card (or “cash”) users because merchants generally do not set differential prices for card users to recoup the costs of fees and rewards. On average, each cash-using household pays $149 to card-using households and each card-using household receives $1,133 from cash users every year. Because credit card spending and rewards are positively correlated with household income, the payment instrument transfer also induces a regressive transfer from low-income to high-income households in general. On average, and after accounting for rewards paid to households by banks, the lowest-income household ($20,000 or less annually) pays $21 and the highest-income household ($150,000 or more annually) receives $750 every year. We build and calibrate a model of consumer payment choice to compute the effects of merchant fees and card rewards on consumer welfare. Reducing merchant fees and card rewards would likely increase consumer welfare.

Source

 
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MickiSue

Level 2 Member
@MHY: see, there you go. I'm very much not a pure capitalist, and for the sake of peace in the forum I won't even address the silliness of assuming that "giving" things to the poor led to the GWB market collapse.
 

Panache

Level 2 Member
On average, each cash-using household pays $149 to card-using households and each card-using household receives $1,133 from cash users every year.
This is making me feel bad. But, I want to see the world too and not pay through the nose for it. What happened to the days of $300 tickets to Europe? Is the high cost of travel also to blame on travel gaming? Lots of "first world problems" to discuss. Maybe time to write a check to charity.
 

MickiSue

Level 2 Member
If it makes you feel any better, those of us who flew in the 1970's remember that it took a lot of planning to get together the funds for a coach class ticket.

Of course, back then, a coach seat was nearly as big as a domestic first class is, today. I remember my first commercial flight, to Montreal via Buffalo NY for a spring break vacation.

The airline tickets cost my ex and me about $250 each (in today's money, that would be $1,138). We stayed at 3 and 4 star hotels and paid the princely sum of $60/night.

The food on the plane was cooked, the utensils were real, as were the linens. In coach.

$300 tickets to Europe, today, are an anomaly, unless you jump on the ones offered through the feed for TheFlightDeal.
 

Panache

Level 2 Member
those of us who flew in the 1970's remember that it took a lot of planning to get together the funds for a coach class ticket.
Very true. I was more yearning to the more recent days in the late 90's and early 00's when oil was ridiculously cheap and airlines were doing price wars. Maybe $300 to Europe is a bit exaggerated but I do remember coast to coast flights for less than $200.

So what would an ideal ethical "system gamer" do?
 
I consider myself as Robinhood(the MS version). Take money from the rich(banks) and give it to the needy(like airlines and hotels).
It's incidental that the needy(airlines and hotels) reward me.

On a more relevant note, this happens because at the end of the day, it's mostly a zero sum game in any transaction. Big corporations lay off people and send the jobs to China and India. CC companies charge outrageous late fees(because they can). If everybody is selling a product for $10 and one intelligent guy finds a way to produce it for $1, you can guess he's not going to sell it for a dollar and 10 cents. He's going to take what the market can bear.

To make this short, read up on game theory and Nash's research on game theory. Every player is working to maximize their benefit. Even if we give up this game, I doubt cc companies would decrease late fees and penalties. So, keep the game on.
 
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Andrew Beall

Level 2 Member
IMO the market is amoral. The only social responsibility of any business is to generate a profit. Sure, sometimes social initiatives may increase the bottom line for a company by increasing their goodwill with consumers, but for-profit businesses are not charities. As long as they are engaged in mutually beneficial trade I do not see what the problem is. And all non-coerced trade is mutually beneficial, otherwise it would not take place. Although you may think a company is "taking advantage" of someone, that company is in fact providing the best service available for that consumer otherwise the consumer would take their business elsewhere.
 

treklectic

Level 2 Member
This "game" is like the scorched earth strategy used by USSR. The banks & airlines are willing to give away money to some, while increasing fees/rates, fares, etc on the many. They still win their war, and the only ones left to starve and freeze on the scorched land are those who banks/airlines wanted to take advantage of in the first place.

It feels like most CC TV commercials are for travel rewards....which also have higher rates. Coincidence?
 

raenye

Lever 2 Membel
As I see it, the problem with gaming is automation.

Whether by algotraders decimating pension funds investors, IFTTT and co. exhausting #AmexFreeMoney offers in 30 minutes, the robots auto-buying every arbitrage-worthy GC on Raise, or the script kiddies snatching all the free pizza codes to flip them for $3 Amazon GC --- the nonhacker (or undereducated, or underpaid, or immigrant) gets screwed everytime.

Little harm is done to the individual IMHO if you churn and fly in F every 3 months. Miles may devalue, people may need to be more flexible with their schedules to actually use their miles, but it could be somewhat stable.
 

Andrew Beall

Level 2 Member
As I see it, the problem with gaming is automation.

Whether by algotraders decimating pension funds investors, IFTTT and co. exhausting #AmexFreeMoney offers in 30 minutes, the robots auto-buying every arbitrage-worthy GC on Raise, or the script kiddies snatching all the free pizza codes to flip them for $3 Amazon GC --- the nonhacker (or undereducated, or underpaid, or immigrant) gets screwed everytime.

Little harm is done to the individual IMHO if you churn and fly in F every 3 months. Miles may devalue, people may need to be more flexible with their schedules to actually use their miles, but it could be somewhat stable.
I don't see it as anyone getting "screwed". Automation is not an extreme barrier to entry. It doesn't take a IT guru. It just takes someone willing to put in the time and effort to learn, just like anything else. That's the excuse I hear more than anything else - "I wish I could do what you do, I just don't have the time!" Because I have more than 24 hours in a day... You can always sleep less.

(Sorry, that last rant wasn't directed towards you, just in general.)
 

raenye

Lever 2 Membel
I don't see it as anyone getting "screwed". Automation is not an extreme barrier to entry. It doesn't take a IT guru. It just takes someone willing to put in the time and effort to learn, just like anything else. That's the excuse I hear more than anything else - "I wish I could do what you do, I just don't have the time!" Because I have more than 24 hours in a day... You can always sleep less.

(Sorry, that last rant wasn't directed towards you, just in general.)
You're absolutely wrong. Everybody besides a handful of people is getting hurt.

It got to the point where the (above-)average person cannot benefit from most promotions. It's not just a matter of being able to set up IFTTT. My other three examples (and you can find lots of others) aren't reduced to "just put a little effort" attitude. And I'm saying that as a person who can do this.*

At some point you're getting into the realm of whose scripts go faster. Perhaps rent a virtual server closer to Twitter servers so your tweets get there first?

* I think. Never tried to write a high frequency trading program though. I'd probably lose a lot of money if I did.
 

Andrew Beall

Level 2 Member
As far as I know no one was born with the knowledge and ability to do any of those things. Yeah, some people have it tougher than others in life in general etc. etc. But there's almost always someone in a worse position who succeeded anyway. Basically, my response is "So what?" That's just life. Some people are more successful than others. Sometimes they're successful at someone else's expense.
 

TheBOSman

Moderator
Staff member
But there's almost always someone in a worse position who succeeded anyway.
There's also always a lot of people in better positions who failed too. People who are wealthy normally worked relatively hard to get there, but not everyone who works hard becomes wealthy (or secure or happy or whatever desire you wish to achieve). Too often, people confuse this in my opinion. Hard work won't make you wealthy in and of itself. It is like a much higher percentage lottery, can't win if you don't play, but far from automatic even if you do...
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
I commented on Twitter last night that I felt you need to step in automation to succeed now. Beyond just offerbot stuff, into things like checking for award space, and signing up for limited quantity deals.

On one hand, I want to lead a discovery team into building out elaborate systems that do automate (EG upon scanning/swiping an Amex you enroll in Small Business Saturday as soon as it goes live.. but on the other, I've just been reading Flash Boys (got it free on Prime) and feel a little disgusted by it all.
 

Andrew Beall

Level 2 Member
There's also always a lot of people in better positions who failed too. People who are wealthy normally worked relatively hard to get there, but not everyone who works hard becomes wealthy (or secure or happy or whatever desire you wish to achieve). Too often, people confuse this in my opinion. Hard work won't make you wealthy in and of itself. It is like a much higher percentage lottery, can't win if you don't play, but far from automatic even if you do...
I agree 100%. It's just my opinion that no one has a "right" to anything they didn't work for. Whether or not an individual is successful in anything should fall solely on them. There is always someone to point the finger at. If someone was better, smarter, etc, then that's just how the cookie crumbles. We're talking about hypothetical opportunities that don't "belong" to anyone. You can't take from someone what they never had.
 

Andrew Beall

Level 2 Member
I commented on Twitter last night that I felt you need to step in automation to succeed now. Beyond just offerbot stuff, into things like checking for award space, and signing up for limited quantity deals.

On one hand, I want to lead a discovery team into building out elaborate systems that do automate (EG upon scanning/swiping an Amex you enroll in Small Business Saturday as soon as it goes live.. but on the other, I've just been reading Flash Boys (got it free on Prime) and feel a little disgusted by it all.
I agree. I'm just stepping in to automation with IFTTT and Amex Sync, but I think you're essentially guaranteed to miss all of the limited quantity deals if you don't automate.
 
As I see it, the problem with gaming is automation.

Whether by algotraders decimating pension funds investors, IFTTT and co. exhausting #AmexFreeMoney offers in 30 minutes, the robots auto-buying every arbitrage-worthy GC on Raise, or the script kiddies snatching all the free pizza codes to flip them for $3 Amazon GC --- the nonhacker (or undereducated, or underpaid, or immigrant) gets screwed everytime.

Little harm is done to the individual IMHO if you churn and fly in F every 3 months. Miles may devalue, people may need to be more flexible with their schedules to actually use their miles, but it could be somewhat stable.
Life ain't fair, brother ! I fail to see why non-hackers are entitled to getting AmexFreeMoney than others. There is always somebody lower on the totem pole.
Warren Buffet pays a lower tax rate than me. But I'm not complaining. People are looking after their self interest. I got screwed on the OM and Staples offers. So, I automated my cards yesterday.
 

MickiSue

Level 2 Member
I'm a little appalled at the number of posters in this thread with the "I've got mine, Jack, keep your hands offa my stash" POVs.

But then, I am always a little appalled at such a POV. Both companies and people have an obligation to society at large--if for no other reason than because companies and people benefit from society at large. If the only obligation of a company is to turn a profit, then any immoral acts committed by it are justifiable. Energy companies dump waste into a community's water source--hey, they are just trying to make a profit. Insurance companies pay their CEO hundreds of millions per year, while setting up sophisticated systems to make it easier to deny claims for their insured--hey, just keeping the Board and the stockholders happy.

By the same token, MSers who swamp small CUs with accounts, in order to turn over $100K/month while they can, and damage the CU as well as the ability of others to MS at a more even-handed rate with those CUs--hey, it's every person for themself, huh?
 

El Ingeniero

Level 2 Member
I suspect the first thing Amex will do is make retweets not count. Then people will write twitter bots that send an original tweet.
 

smittytabb

Moderator
Staff member
I think that what could happen is that Amex will find a way to further limit offers. Just got just such an offer from Saks Fifth Ave for 6k MR for $400. Longest T&Cs I've seen for an offer. Thinking I may need to have one online account per card more than before. Amex did kill Seth's Sync Assist. Don't know how they will deal with further automation. I do know that deals being subscribed quickly is not sustainable and something will change.

EDIT: So, I added the 6K offer a few hours ago and then when I look in my Amex profile, it's there as an offer and I cannot add it and it isn't saved anymore. Not sure what is up with that.

EDIT numero dos: So, this issue was a systemwide issue and is now fixed so you can add the 6K offer if you are targeted.
 

nrdk

Level 2 Member
I commented on Twitter last night that I felt you need to step in automation to succeed now. Beyond just offerbot stuff, into things like checking for award space, and signing up for limited quantity deals.

On one hand, I want to lead a discovery team into building out elaborate systems that do automate (EG upon scanning/swiping an Amex you enroll in Small Business Saturday as soon as it goes live.. but on the other, I've just been reading Flash Boys (got it free on Prime) and feel a little disgusted by it all.
Agreed on the Flash Boys reference, it's a great read and a good way to keep yourself in check to a degree.

As far as the automation goes, it's a 6 one way half dozen the other situation. Either an individual takes part in an automated system and you compete directly versus others automations, or you 'lose out' on the opportunities and lament about not doing so. Unfortunately either way there's a supposed loss, whether missing a 'deal' or feeling like you're contributing to the problem.

Personally, I feel that if the market is skewed towards those with an additional toolkit, and if you truly want to compete in said market, then you have to get onboard with the toolkit or go above and beyond. In the case of automation, and really any programming, that means making sure your thought process is concise, your code is the clean and you have the best resources to draw upon.
 

Someone

Level 2 Member
I fail to see why non-hackers are entitled to getting AmexFreeMoney than others.
I think we can reasonably assume that the intention of the marketing folk at the stores and Amex who are giving away said free money is to drive traffic, generate return visits, and ultimately increase profitable sales. Attracting numerous individual MS'ers who each rock dozens of Amex cards and often use those cards to buy minimally profitable open-loop gift cards is definitely contrary to that intention.

"Entitled" is a bad word these days, so instead let's say that the people giving away the free money *intended* it to be for non-hackers.

Warren Buffet pays a lower tax rate than me. But I'm not complaining.
Restructure your income such that most of it comes from qualified dividends and you can join Buffet and the thousands of others who pay a similar rate. While you're at it, move to a state like Florida with no personal income tax.

I got screwed on the OM and Staples offers. So, I automated my cards yesterday.
^^^ This is the right attitude. When you can't beat 'em, join 'em!
 

El Ingeniero

Level 2 Member
I got in on the Staples offer because it was 12:30 am and I had just finished hooking up every card I had to tweetdeck and was looking in the right place when OffersBot tweeted that #AmexStaples was available. Got lucky in other words.

I never did find the original tweet from Amex announcing it; it sure wasn't up on the AmexOffers twitter page for 24 hours after. I haven't looked since.

Speaking of gaming, I suspect someone out there is already spamming various of the more lucrative Amex hashtags available in the past. If created and deleted random Twitter accounts, using say 1000 at a time, and used them to run 1 query per second through a TOR enabled browser using Selenium, it would be cheap and easy.
 
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nrdk

Level 2 Member
I got in on the Staples offer because it was 12:30 am and I had just finished hooking up every card I had to tweetdeck and was looking in the right place when OffersBot tweeted that #AmexStaples was available. Got lucky in other words.

I never did find the original tweet from Amex announcing it; it sure wasn't up on the AmexOffers twitter page for 24 hours after. I haven't looked since.

Speaking of gaming, I suspect someone out there is already spamming various of the more lucrative Amex hashtags available in the past. If created and deleted random Twitter accounts, using say 1000 at a time, and used them to run 1 query per second through a TOR enabled browser using Selenium, it would be cheap and easy.
Twitter does a fair job in parsing out automated creation methods for new accounts, it can be done but Twitter adds a layer of complexity that most find not worth the time to go through, albeit if there was a profit motivator (which there is for verified Twitter accounts to a small degree, mostly in the large volume batches) it can be done.
 

HariOm

Transcendent Level
I commented on Twitter last night that I felt you need to step in automation to succeed now. Beyond just offerbot stuff, into things like checking for award space,
Any ideas on how to automate an Etihad award search? EY is not covered by Award Nexus or Expert Flyer, and while the KVS Tool can search EY, it doesn't offer automated searches.
 

El Ingeniero

Level 2 Member
Any ideas on how to automate an Etihad award search? EY is not covered by Award Nexus or Expert Flyer, and while the KVS Tool can search EY, it doesn't offer automated searches.
You'd have to write code, I would think. My preferred approach would be to use Selenium to drive a browser, as this takes care of all the Web 2.0 bits and bobs. You'd have the code enter the search parameters on the search interface and scrape the output. Something really sophisticated would then automatically book the flight for you if it's the right price.
 

El Ingeniero

Level 2 Member
Great White Buffalo?;)

The illegality of debtors' prisons underlies the market collapse.
You mean to say that not sufficiently privileging capital over labor underlay the market collapse. FTFY.

But I must disagree: we privilege capital over labor in every area of public policy, from finance to healthcare to immigration. That's what happens when any yahoo with deep pockets can buy himself a few legislators. Given the current state of affairs, we are only a few decades away from those controlling the largest capital aggregates becoming neo-feudal lords over all of us.

I am praying that leaving a decent inheritance for a couple of kids will let my descendants retain yeoman status rather than having to enter serfdom.
 
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nrdk

Level 2 Member
You'd have to write code, I would think. My preferred approach would be to use Selenium to drive a browser, as this takes care of all the Web 2.0 bits and bobs. You'd have the code enter the search parameters on the search interface and scrape the output. Something really sophisticated would then automatically book the flight for you if it's the right price.
This, however there's a reasonable chance of TOS violations and such involved when it comes to automation through Selenium.
 

jmw

Level 2 Member
I'm a little appalled at the number of posters in this thread with the "I've got mine, Jack, keep your hands offa my stash" POVs.

But then, I am always a little appalled at such a POV. Both companies and people have an obligation to society at large--if for no other reason than because companies and people benefit from society at large.
That's an interesting POV, but I don't agree with it since that's not how the world works. To me, that's like kids believing in unicorns. If you knew how much you were getting screwed over by the government and corporations, I don't see how you can hold that POV.

For example, the cash in your paycheck that's supposed to go to Social Security (12.4% of your total WAGE-BASED compensation) doesn't really go there. It's forced participation in a pyramid scheme, not a contribution for the next generation's retirement. The SS trust fund is a form of fiction created by accounting. The Treasury IOUs in the fictional trust fund are inferior to real T-bonds since repayments can be skipped without triggering a general US Treasury default. They're not real T-bonds. If you think they're real debt instruments, why not put in real T-bonds, corporate bonds, or stocks that can be sold on the open market? Because it's a pyramid scheme with a 0% funded pension. Retirees are actually paid via the current year federal budget. 24% of the federal budget is to pay SS. That money doesn't come from a "trust fund". If you wonder where your SS taxes actually go to, look at the military in the Middle East or the overpriced payments to big pharma and healthcare. So don't feel bad when you game SS with the file and suspend strategy or claim a bigger benefit because your ex-spouse is worth more dead than alive.

If you belong to an HMO or Medicare Advantage, you won't know how much they've skimped your care until you go to a non-HMO physician. Kaiser HMO folks are happy because they're ignorant of the non-formulary drugs and treatments that are never offered when cheaper (and often less effective) alternatives are available. Here, gaming the system is via a PPO to pay for catastrophic expenses and pay cash for "concierge medicine" and "executive medicine". Only peons deal with 15 minute doctors' appointments.

College students don't understand why their education is overpriced and often useless until they're out of school with a ton of debt that cannot be discharged in BK. Private education and higher education are cartels funded by student loans.

Why is cannibis illegal all over the world? It's not due to the supposed dangerous effects of that plant. Look at big pharma if you want to know why weed is illegal. What's legal is not always ethical.

The only reason why I would suggest not going all-in with gaming and cheating with bots is to avoid shutdowns and blacklists. Even violating the TOS doesn't matter as long as you don't get caught. Other than that, game the system and bot as much as you can get away with.
 
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