henrygeorge
Level 2 Member
I just added his post quote. I wish I could add a [Debunked] to the title.
[Debunked] Cheesing Welfare ($75k/year)
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MickiSue
Level 2 Member
You could do as InstinctX suggests, and copy/paste into a return email some of the debunking comments. Even better, as I assume he sent to a list, do a "reply all".
Also, FWIW, it's probably against company policy for people to send this kind of excrement via company email. If he continues, I'd have a little chat with HR, myself. It's considered harassment.
Also, FWIW, it's probably against company policy for people to send this kind of excrement via company email. If he continues, I'd have a little chat with HR, myself. It's considered harassment.
Belisarius
Level 2 Member
Always my first clue to delete without reading.
These sorts of chain mails always foster an agenda and there are versions of the above in every part of the political and social advocacy spectrum - true believers usually ignoring that their side is a wellspring of similar misinformation. The most effective versions have some kernels of truth that resonate with the zeitgeist but they withhold or embellish some key context. They're meant to have you rally around the banner. Whatever yours may be. In support - damn right! Or in rejection - see, this is how these neanderthals think! The electoral silly season makes it worse.
This grass roots stuff is basically Snopes fodder. I'm a little more disconcerted when mainstream media and the broader culture embrace and propagate false narratives propped by outright manufactured statistics or anecdote without running a first pass with empirical reality or basic fact checking. Rolling Stone recently gathered some moss.
There's something about social media that lends itself to dumb easy rallying cries and a weird sense of fulfillment it engenders for some people to babble platitudes in lieu of ideas. You see it in the dark underbelly of racist Youtube comments and Obama is a Muslim websites and you see it with the self-appointed Twitter social justice warriors who deify victimhood, can't leave their houses without encountering withering social oppression and can't wait to bully someone in the name of their latest anti-bullying campaign.
As for the topic - the welfare state can be gamed and some larger trends in social choice are reflective of that - the notion that we're the only people who can find life's loopholes and pass info to each other is fairly arrogant - but it's simultaneously true that some people in true need have trouble accessing services. Both things can be true at once. And are.
FWIW, some of the most gifted gamers of the social safety net are plural marriage fundamentalist Mormons (LDS don't consider them Mormons at all). They hate the broader culture and wear their cheats as a badge of honor - they call it "bleeding the beast." They have the social safety net hacking game down to a science. Or whatever science substitute they endorse.
Panache
Level 2 Member
Most people have eloquently debunked most or all of the statement, I did not think it was necessary to respond as they did a better job I could have done. Apologies if misinterpreted, I mostly used the dislike as I like this forum and it's non-political bent. However, I think it is good to go through these kinds of tirades as we are all smart people, so in retrospect my dislike is not warranted but, unfortunately there is no undo, so I offer my apology.
Belisarius
Level 2 Member
So which is it? Should he engage and correct the person in front of an audience thus likely leading to a debate on work e-mail which will then only fuel your sense of harassment or should he run and tell HR? It seems you advocate both. Would you behave similarly with an e-mail forward you agree with?
See below
[QUOTE="....in retrospect my dislike is not warranted but, unfortunately there is no undo, so I offer my apology.[/QUOTE]
Actually, I think that if you hover over your dislike, it will say to the right, pretty much on the same text line, "undo rating" or something along those lines. You could then undo it and replace it with one that more accurately reflects your feelings. Not that it's crucial to do so, but in case you really want to change a rating sometime, it should be easy.
Actually, I think that if you hover over your dislike, it will say to the right, pretty much on the same text line, "undo rating" or something along those lines. You could then undo it and replace it with one that more accurately reflects your feelings. Not that it's crucial to do so, but in case you really want to change a rating sometime, it should be easy.
henrygeorge
Level 2 Member
There is an undo. It's on the right side below Quote/Reply.
@Matt you really need to get going on a 'bollocks' button
If a dislike button causes this much consternation I am not sure we are quite ready for that yet.
Ha ha! To me, bollocks means the idea has issues, not the person, so it seems less personal. Maybe that is bollocks...
Panache
Level 2 Member
PurpleSquirrel
MS Nuts
It's ingenuity if their own people do it. It's leeching or gaming the system if other people do it. That's how far-right wing bozos view it.
Belisarius
Level 2 Member
Totally agree. But you should follow that instinct whether or not your agree with the person's viewpoint. The key principle is that it's unprofessional to forward propaganda in the workplace. Punishing disagreement with your world view (a reply all debunking and ensuing debate, going to HR etc) makes you lose the high ground. Give them a chance to fix it.
MickiSue
Level 2 Member
You are correct. That should be the response when such behavior happens once.
For this one, and , actually, for the times I've replied all, it wasn't the first time it had happened. HG describes the OP of the email as being extremely right wing; a trait he wouldn't have displayed if all he shared at the office was his love of the local soccer team.
credipig
Level 2 Member
The problem with the welfare system isn't the people taking advantage of the system; it's the system that allows them to do it. The government needs to cut out the loopholes and generous subsidies for lazy people.
By the way, anyone see the irony in this thread? It identifies some ways people take advantage of the welfare system. This Saverocity a group focused on taking advantage of the credit card, frequent flyer, and banking systems.
By the way, anyone see the irony in this thread? It identifies some ways people take advantage of the welfare system. This Saverocity a group focused on taking advantage of the credit card, frequent flyer, and banking systems.
MickiSue
Level 2 Member
Really? Every credible study done on any of the safety net type systems in place have shown that the cost to weed out the extremely low percentage of what Reagan so famously named "welfare queens" is far and beyond the cost of any fraud involved.The problem with the welfare system isn't the people taking advantage of the system; it's the system that allows them to do it. The government needs to cut out the loopholes and generous subsidies for lazy people.
By the way, anyone see the irony in this thread? It identifies some ways people take advantage of the welfare system. This Saverocity a group focused on taking advantage of the credit card, frequent flyer, and banking systems.
Now, if you really want to stop fraud that costs the taxpayers a lot of money, start with military contractors, add in banksters and those who use illegal offshore havens for their money. Don't forget the inheritors of enormous estates they had nothing to do with earning...we must catch those who supposedly scam tens of thousands, and turn our eyes from those who scam millions.
The welfare system operates for the benefit of needy recipients. I can assure you the other three you named do not operate for the benefit of us the recipientsBy the way, anyone see the irony in this thread? It identifies some ways people take advantage of the welfare system. This Saverocity a group focused on taking advantage of the credit card, frequent flyer, and banking systems.
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I pointed out the irony further up the thread actually. I mentioned the concept of "othering", something that is happening in your comment about "lazy people". Assuming so many are taking advantage of these kinds of things (and I think the claim is wildly exaggerated), it takes a lot of work to make all these loopholes work for you, no?The problem with the welfare system isn't the people taking advantage of the system; it's the system that allows them to do it. The government needs to cut out the loopholes and generous subsidies for lazy people.
By the way, anyone see the irony in this thread? It identifies some ways people take advantage of the welfare system. This Saverocity a group focused on taking advantage of the credit card, frequent flyer, and banking systems.
Let people get butt hurt when they get a dislike. They shouldn't allow comments on some website to upset them. Go outside and quit getting upset about some image of a thumbs down.
TheAmericanTravelProject
Level 2 Member
I am hoping you didn't mean to generalize with the "generous subsidies for lazy people" comment, but just for the sake of argument...I have personally met (and often visited the homes of) hundreds of people who receive 'welfare' benefits. I can assure you that I have yet to see a situation that I envy or that I would wish upon anyone. The recipients that I personally have met are generally people who have, by life circumstances, been marginalized. Many have been treated badly throughout their lives, oftentimes brutally. Sadly, I have been in my job long enough that I am now seeing adults that were children when I first met them and their families. I have nothing but compassion for the people who are in need of this kind of help. Most of them are not proud of it, and are quite ashamed in fact. Many would work at jobs that would pay their cost of living if they could. The system is imperfect, people are also imperfect. I am not even a religious person, but in my head I often think "there but for the grace of God go I" as I am working. I was lucky to be born in a time, place and into a family situation that afforded me the opportunities to be where I am today. I don't think that makes me special or more worthy, just lucky.The problem with the welfare system isn't the people taking advantage of the system; it's the system that allows them to do it. The government needs to cut out the loopholes and generous subsidies for lazy people.
By the way, anyone see the irony in this thread? It identifies some ways people take advantage of the welfare system. This Saverocity a group focused on taking advantage of the credit card, frequent flyer, and banking systems.
henrygeorge
Level 2 Member
1) While it is not offensive to me, I know several people who take offense to the term "butt hurt".
2) As already discussed, it isn't the comment that is bothersome, it's the lack thereof.
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El Ingeniero
Level 2 Member
3 things:
1) if a few people are able to game the system, so frickin' what? It's not doing enough for the people who really need it. I for one, would be happy to never see another old lady wrapped in a blanket holding a cardboard sign up at an intersection. At sundown. In the dead of winter. In subzero temps. Happy enough to tolerate the odd welfare queen. Really.
2) We are all one good whack on the head away from being so helpless we can't take care of ourselves. Up to now, the only societies which didn't take care of their helpless, either adored the idea of being Nietzschean super-assholes or simply didn't have the wherewhithal to do so. The second is not true of our society, but the first is true of some people in our society. Oh, sad irony when they get a good whack on the head, and a social worker tries to make sure they are taken care of.
3) We have a societal hangup around the notion of deserving stuff. This is a straw man no one really believes in. People who harp on that word make me retch. No matter who you are, there is someone objectively better than you, smarter, harder working, more efficient, who could do your job better, but aren't compensated as well as you. If you truly believe in deserving what you have, go find such a person, and trade jobs with him. Or shut up with that word "deserve", because you don't have enough conviction in that belief to act on it, and don't have the guts to admit you aren't the best person for that job, you were lucky enough to do the job, and merely good enough to hang on to it (hopefully at actually doing your job, and not at brown-nosing your boss).
1) if a few people are able to game the system, so frickin' what? It's not doing enough for the people who really need it. I for one, would be happy to never see another old lady wrapped in a blanket holding a cardboard sign up at an intersection. At sundown. In the dead of winter. In subzero temps. Happy enough to tolerate the odd welfare queen. Really.
2) We are all one good whack on the head away from being so helpless we can't take care of ourselves. Up to now, the only societies which didn't take care of their helpless, either adored the idea of being Nietzschean super-assholes or simply didn't have the wherewhithal to do so. The second is not true of our society, but the first is true of some people in our society. Oh, sad irony when they get a good whack on the head, and a social worker tries to make sure they are taken care of.
3) We have a societal hangup around the notion of deserving stuff. This is a straw man no one really believes in. People who harp on that word make me retch. No matter who you are, there is someone objectively better than you, smarter, harder working, more efficient, who could do your job better, but aren't compensated as well as you. If you truly believe in deserving what you have, go find such a person, and trade jobs with him. Or shut up with that word "deserve", because you don't have enough conviction in that belief to act on it, and don't have the guts to admit you aren't the best person for that job, you were lucky enough to do the job, and merely good enough to hang on to it (hopefully at actually doing your job, and not at brown-nosing your boss).
MickiSue
Level 2 Member
I really really detest the words "I deserve..." Because of course you do. And we all do. We all, by virtue of being human, deserve a decent roof over our head, decent food, decent educations, decent healthcare and a safe environment. But some of us never even have to think twice about the idea that we may not have it, and others never have it, at all.
That's one of the reasons (of several) that I get so tired of listening/reading about the hoi polo "ruining it" for real, honest to God MSers. Because you know what nobody deserves? To MS. If you have the intelligence and wherewithal to do it, good for you. Good for me. But it's not our right. We got lucky.
That's one of the reasons (of several) that I get so tired of listening/reading about the hoi polo "ruining it" for real, honest to God MSers. Because you know what nobody deserves? To MS. If you have the intelligence and wherewithal to do it, good for you. Good for me. But it's not our right. We got lucky.
TheAmericanTravelProject
Level 2 Member
Love this whole comment, but especially this part. We really are only one unexpected incident away from being as in need of help as anyone. I've seen people's lives taken down by head injuries, cancer and other illness of breadwinner, mental illness and natural disasters. Some people just do not have families who are capable of taking care of them, financially or otherwise, in times of crisis.
This is a very important point... I believe that being hung up on desert also negatively impacts our criminal justice system. You can think of it in parenting also. If you ask the question... "what does this person who did something wrong/bad etc deserve as their punishment" You will often come up with something that while they may "deserve" it, will have a far more negative effect on the guilty party, any innocent party involved, and also society as a whole. I don't have all the answers to this, but I think more often we need to be asking partly what do they deserve, but also very much in the context of what is going to help them to not repeat this behavior and for them in the future to contribute positively to society (and the family, in the context of parenting). We also need to be looking at what circumstances lead up to the incident and if we need to try to change those as well, because surely they may lead to someone else doing the very same thing.
