Breaking through the name game.

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
I'm hashing out some ideas, let's hear what you think.

I love the idea of naming your money, but I don't think that doing so is worth the inefficiency it creates. I'm thinking to build a system where we cut the inefficiency out of our finances as much as possible.

I talk about the Emergency Fund a lot, because the concept bothers me. I recently started thinking more about this and drifting into alternative strategies. In my research I found that Betterment proposes a Stock/Bond EF. They think that it will likely survive, and I am inclined to agree with them. Wealthfront's Rachleff raised a solid point in his post here with the comment:

Investable assets above a certain level eliminate the need for an emergency fund.​

For me, the irony of it all is that a cash based EF is 'at odds' with the growth of investable assets. If you must first load up in cash, it will take you that much longer to build your investable assets.

What is the right path to take?

Let's say I meet a person with $50K in savings but no emergency fund - what does that mean? Could it mean that they are fully invested in stocks? Let's imagine that their EF 'number' is 4x months of expense aka $8000. Would $50k fully invested in stocks mean that they don't have that? The worst performing period we've recently faced was a 57% drop in value. If that happened it would be awful, the $50K would drop to $21,500.

Let's pretend that this person with no EF also needs $8000 at exactly that time due to being fired or whatnot. What would they do? If they sold then it is likely that they would be 'doing the worst thing' (buying high, selling low)...

But they would also be capturing a capital loss which could be carried forward against regular income (Tax Loss Harvesting) and they'd still have their $8K covered.

Where's the risk case?

The risk has to be the person that doesn't have $50K. What if they have only $4K in savings? If they put that in the market and everything went wrong, they'd be underfunded. Again, if it was 100% stocks then they would be down to just $1720. Perhaps they would be screwed. Their goal of saving up to the $8K would be thwarted.

But who is this person? If they haven't got $8000 then I'd have to think they are one or all of the following:

  • Spending too much
  • Debt ridden
It's something of a 1-2 combo, and not uncommon in a college graduate. The spending too much can occur even in the most frugal with these inflated college fees. But how do you fix it?

Someone comes to me with $20K in student debt and $4000 in checking. What's he got? A $4k EF? Perhaps... these names... they confuse me. I kinda think he has a negative net worth of $16K and needs to stop paying interest on $20k.... Should the advice be to load up another $4K first and foremost, keep it all in cash? Or should the advice be to run EF free? And throw everything at that debt? Perhaps it would be smarter still to invest in the market?

Let's go more real world -your student loan ridden grad loses their job and has nothing 'spare' in the bank because they put all their money into paying down their debt. They don't have an EF in place so therefore they cannot make loan payments - what happens?

There's a real risk that if they can't find a way to restructure things they may face a fee or penalty. But if they aren't paying down their debt as fast as possible, for every dollar in a cash (or stock) EF is incurring a fee or penalty in that it isn't being used to eliminate interest payments.

The more I think about Emergency Funds, the more I think that the name is creating inefficiency. Some people like this, but we must accept and embrace the costs if we do.

Last up, I wonder about this scenario:

Family of 4, SAHM. Mortgage of $200K. What happens if Pop loses his job? Should they have stocks at all, or cash? Should the debt payment be the full focus? If that happens and there is no money for mortgage payments there is a lien risk against the property and it could be lost, which has both financial (loss of equity) and emotional concerns. Clearly, an all cash buffer is the safest solution. But what would a HELOC create? Could you determine that a $20K EF worked, and on the day that Dad thought he was going to get fired they called on it, instantly creating a debt, but avoiding one until that moment. Couple that with life insurance and we might find an interesting solution.

I've mentioned previously that I like to write to think. In this post I feel that we should consider a range of risk related solutions to wealth generation. The riskiest of them may include breaking with the traditional approach. However, I feel that this might be most appealing to the lazy. They may think of it as a way to maintain improper spending habits and a crutch for proper planning. People who want to go to the extremes are going to need to be extremely sophisticated and disciplined as they are running the highest risk of failure.
 

Sesq

Level 2 Member
Interesting post. I read in a forum once some one railing against the emergency fund by saying that in the event of a real emergency, all of their investments (Roth/401(k)/HSA) is the emergency fund. I agree with this.

My cash balances have crept up a bit since I have incurred some financial sprawl opening multiple bank accounts for sign up bonuses and to use as deposit accounts. If you net out the balances that float (but pay before interest is due) on the credit cards I am pretty close to a net zero in cash.

I did put 10k into i-bonds a year or so ago thinking that as my "emergency fund" and at least that wouldn't lose purchasing power versus inflation. I am less thrilled with that choice given the latest I bond rate.
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
Interesting post. I read in a forum once some one railing against the emergency fund by saying that in the event of a real emergency, all of their investments (Roth/401(k)/HSA) is the emergency fund. I agree with this.

My cash balances have crept up a bit since I have incurred some financial sprawl opening multiple bank accounts for sign up bonuses and to use as deposit accounts. If you net out the balances that float on the credit cards I am pretty close to a net zero in cash.

I did put 10k into i-bonds a year or so ago thinking that as my "emergency fund" and at least that wouldn't lose purchasing power versus inflation. I am less thrilled with that choice given the latest I bond rate.
Personally I've changed the way I think about it, and am still refining that change... this time around I am thinking about how clients will come to me and what path to set them on. I've spoken with others and they claim that you should keep the cash EF pure and simple, but I don't think they know the harm this causes - or maybe the harm is acceptable and I am over thinking it. I will be running numbers on that.

The key issue I have with an EF at this time stems from the interest rate. I think that if you are able to generate a 5% per some Mango like product that is likely better than bonds so it would work fine for me, but if you are putting your funds into an Ally type account around 1% then I have a problem with it.

I'm sitting on a lot of cash right now myself, those silly bank account signups...
 

shootenducs

Level 2 Member
I to am thinking about how much cash to have on hand. Your post a couple of months ago on paying interest vs EF got me thinking. It's all about how much risk you want/ willing to accept, needed cash flow etc. What level do you want it to be?What about using a Roth as an EF vehicle?
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
Wait, how much cash are you making from bank account signups yearly?
I didn't mean that I was wealthy from signups, I meant that the signups I've been involved with recently have involved requiring a float lock up. I haven't made anything from signup bonuses, I am referring to opening with cards and earning some points.
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
@Matt, what's your take on "emergency/hardship" insurance that some companies peddle?
Can you send me a link to look at?

My general view is that a cash based EF is an inverted insurance premium... if the premium offered by an external firm is less then it might be interesting. I'd be keen to know the price, and the restrictions.
 

Sesq

Level 2 Member
Wait, how much cash are you making from bank account signups yearly?
This year:
$240/year Santander
$300 - BoA
$200 - PNC

DOC and FWF keep lists of current offers.

Not a bank account, but
$1k - Merrill Edge.

I also have some cash tied up at Suntrust due to a couple debit cards that are about to be a lot less useful.

Then I got a bunch of accounts that I need to clean up and consolidate (may have been from loan products, not sign ups, or facilitate perks). Sprawl.
 
@Matt It seems like there are a couple related issues you're battling with here.

As you say there is certainly a tension between "equity appears to offer good long-term growth potential" and "at any randomly selected moment equities may be worth more or less than they were purchased for." Deductible losses take some of the sting out of the latter but, well, only some of it!

I think that the name "emergency fund" is guaranteed to cause problems for anyone trying to implement it. Now, those may be big problems (losing years of investment returns out of terror at investing any cash in the market) or little problems (leaving more money in in low-yield CD's than would technically be ideal given someone's age/risk profile). But isolating some money from your overall asset allocation by designating it "for emergencies" will by definition cause an inefficient asset allocation.

On the other hand, the impulse to "set money aside for emergencies" is based on the factual and evidence-based observation that faced with unexpected expenses, lack of access to liquid funds can result in financial and lifestyle catastrophe.

So financial man and the planner who assists him should synthesize all these good and true impulses into something like: "creating the most efficient financial life possible while minimizing catastrophic risks." (Note: catastrophic risks only: the broader asset allocation should be based on the individual's personal risk tolerance. But no one can "tolerate" catastrophic risk, by definition — homelessness, divorce, debtor's prison).

So that's my general outlook on "emergency funds." Personally, I keep thousands of dollars in Mango savings accounts, but I do so because I think it's a good and appropriate part of my asset allocation, not really "for emergencies."

Now that I've dispensed with this idea of "emergency funds," let me say that I think absolutely everyone should have an emergency PLAN. You don't have to spend all day and night thinking about all the horrible things that could happen to you, but you should have a concrete idea of what you would do if your financial situation suddenly and dramatically worsened. For example, my emergency strategy would be something like:

1) MS on 0% interest card (15-18 month interest-free loan)
2) Mango savings
3) Roth IRA

My partner doesn't have or know any of those things, so her plan might be something like:

1) Borrow from mom

Both these strategies are completely fine and legitimate, each is calibrated to our particular financial and life situation. The fact that one of them involves money and knowledge I have stashed away and one doesn't isn't relevant to their effectiveness in dealing with a sudden catastrophic emergency.
 

Abbazappaplant

Paranoid MS'er :)
Not to throw too much more into this but...

1) MS on 0% interest card (15-18 month interest-free loan) or 21 months with Citi Simplicity.

This is really my liquid asset at the moment. While I could realistically stash away, for arguments sake, 6k to float me for 4 months, why would I do that? Most of us in this game have cultivated high credit scores and have zero balances on our credit cards. So if I lose my job (hey, this actually just happened to me) and something catastrophic were to happen, I do have a "fall back."

The main thing to realize is that every case will be different. So in my case, I have about 3 months of funds in my checking/savings that will cover me, no problem. If by the end of that 3 months I haven't found a new job or do not have income coming in, at that point in time I will open a Simplicity card and have 21 months of zero interest financing. If it takes me another 4 months and I put 6k on that card, I will have about 16 or so months to pay that off.

Maybe I'm over simplifying, but in these situations, simple is best. No extravagances, sell those items you've been meaning to sell, only purchase the essentials and leverage your credit as best as possible.

(failing all of this, I'll just cash in about 300k in ultimate rewards at a penny a piece and start over again) :p:eek:

Now for my younger brother, who is swimming in student loan debt, the case completely changes and we have him with 1 month of EF and doing all he can to pay down debt. The interest he is generating each month is absurd and he doesn't really get the choice of having any comfort. He's secure in his current job and at the end of 12 months, he should be out of debt. At that time, he can reevaluate his situation and determine what EF he has comfort with.

The game changes in every case, sitting down like this and actually figuring out what works for you, as opposed to blanket concepts, is the best approach
 
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Matt

Administrator
Staff member
So in my case, I have about 3 months of funds in my checking/savings that will cover me, no problem. If by the end of that 3 months I haven't found a new job or do not have income coming in, at that point in time I will open a Simplicity card and have 21 months of zero interest financing. If it takes me another 4 months and I put 6k on that card, I will have about 16 or so months to pay that off.
It might be smarter to pull out the money now, and have that reserve locked in, just in case you go the 3 months and something changes at that time preventing you accessing those cards or being able to liquidate them. Of course, doing so comes with risks from a behavioral perspective, you may lose the 'hunger' edge a little and could wind up in debt...
 

Abbazappaplant

Paranoid MS'er :)
It might be smarter to pull out the money now, and have that reserve locked in, just in case you go the 3 months and something changes at that time preventing you accessing those cards or being able to liquidate them. Of course, doing so comes with risks from a behavioral perspective, you may lose the 'hunger' edge a little and could wind up in debt...
wait, what am I pulling money from and need to liquidate? Matt, have you only been dealing with gift cards for so long you've forgotten what cash is? ;) My account is 3 months of "reserve" funds. Basically, my last month of pay will now just sit as fully accessible in checking/savings as opposed to being invested or used as float in other projects/gigs.

What I was referring to at the end there was applying for a long term 0% interest card (after about 3-4 months of job hunting) and using the open credit line of that to float me until finding a suitable job for my mercurial talents :) I've got a baby on the way, the hunger to find a job won't run out... promise! :) (too many emoticons?)
 

Miles

Level 2 Member
Dave Ramsey, a bankruptcy-avoidance guru, always recommends that his listeners have a one-thousand-dollar EF. That has always seemed to me like a low number.
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
wait, what am I pulling money from and need to liquidate? Matt, have you only been dealing with gift cards for so long you've forgotten what cash is? ;) My account is 3 months of "reserve" funds. Basically, my last month of pay will now just sit as fully accessible in checking/savings as opposed to being invested or used as float in other projects/gigs.

What I was referring to at the end there was applying for a long term 0% interest card (after about 3-4 months of job hunting) and using the open credit line of that to float me until finding a suitable job for my mercurial talents :) I've got a baby on the way, the hunger to find a job won't run out... promise! :) (too many emoticons?)
I'm suggesting that you lock in your future draw today.

In your proposal you have some cash today, and if it runs dry you'll tap into the credit lines via giftcards, however, since you have a long lead time on interest free I'm suggesting that you apply today so you build an instant 6-7 month of EF, your 3 plus another 3-4 today. If and when you secure a new job you pay down the debt.

The logic is that in your plan you are assuming that this credit line will be there when you need it (should you need it) months from now, in my plan I remove the risk that it may not be there by taking it today.

The cost of my approach is that it reduces the interest free period, but with the durations you mention on simplicity etc I think that's workable.
 

Abbazappaplant

Paranoid MS'er :)
Dave Ramsey, a bankruptcy-avoidance guru, always recommends that his listeners have a one-thousand-dollar EF. That has always seemed to me like a low number.
See, this is the crap I'm talking about. I live in Manhattan. $1k emergency fund, if I'm being frugal as hell, gets me through 21 days max.

Is the person's house/condo/apartment paid off, no student loans, no car loan? What is the basis for just saying tuck away 1k and pay me $59.99 for my learning tapes. I hate these financial planners that do this crap and have no intelligence behind their statements.
 

Abbazappaplant

Paranoid MS'er :)
I'm suggesting that you lock in your future draw today.

In your proposal you have some cash today, and if it runs dry you'll tap into the credit lines via giftcards, however, since you have a long lead time on interest free I'm suggesting that you apply today so you build an instant 6-7 month of EF, your 3 plus another 3-4 today. If and when you secure a new job you pay down the debt.

The logic is that in your plan you are assuming that this credit line will be there when you need it (should you need it) months from now, in my plan I remove the risk that it may not be there by taking it today.

The cost of my approach is that it reduces the interest free period, but with the durations you mention on simplicity etc I think that's workable.
Ahhhhhh.... I am now hip to what you are hopping! I have two cards that currently have 9 months and 6 months of zero interest left on their terms, so I'll probably just ride those out. Might not be a bad idea, like you say, to lock in some AGC's the next time a CB bump comes up and utilize those. (Why redbird... why???) :D
 

RWC75

Level 2 Member
A couple of thoughts...

One of the things that an EF has to have to be effective in emergencies is liquidity / accessibility. If you need money NOW, you may not be in a position to wait 2-3 days or a week+ before being able to access funds. In addition, in an emergency, you may not be physically able to do a VGC > MO run - so if you're planning to MS up what you need when you need it, that may not be an option. That's part of why most financial advice centers on having XYZ months of expenses in a liquid vehicle such as a savings account. Being able to tap that immediately for unexpected expenses is a very very powerful tool.

Now, there's definitely something to be said for leveraging zero interest cards for no-interest medium term loans. A hybrid approach, wherein you MS about 3-4 months of expenses and depositing that into a more liquid vehicle such as a savings account, gives you a "best of both worlds" approach. You're not tying up investable funds / savings, while at the same time gaining access to a liquid vehicle to fund short term emergency expenses. If you can get 2-3% or better interest at the same time, so much the better; and of course don't forget to count the usual 3% balance transfer fee.

Finally, there's probably some value in looking at the "3-4 months" of emergency expenses. If you need to tap that amount of funds to sustain yourself over a longer period, then you'll reasonably have time to draw in assets from less liquid vehicles as time goes on. This would allow you to leverage things like a HELOC, a Roth IRA, or even an HSA if properly structured. Roth IRAs and HSAs in particular are interesting options; Roths allow you to always withdraw your contributions tax-free, and HSAs always allow you to withdraw amounts equal to medical expenses (which you don't have to claim immediately btw, you can "bank" those expenses and withdraw at a later date).

So you could look at a hybrid strategy of 1-2 months expenses in a savings account funded by 0% balance transfer / MS combo, and another 2+ months in an accessible vehicle like HELOC / Roth / HSA. Combine that with short/long term disability insurance and you've got a pretty solid base IMO.
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
If you need money NOW
Yeah, but the situations where you need money NOW are pretty rare these days. Unless you are kidnapped by Somali pirates. The reality is that you can cover most NOW events in the US with a credit card, or a bill coming soon.

I guess the root of my issue is defining the situation where someone actually needs money and doesn't have it. I'm not suggesting that people forgo an EF just to go off and get hookers and blow, I'm suggesting that people probably have enough already and are losing efficiency by demanding that they allot X into an account under a certain 'name'.

The key would be to look at an individual's finances and cash flows to see what is happening, and this is what I'll be doing soon with my new firm. A couple of situations that I've seen recently by reading between the lines on 2 blogs are as follows:

  • Guy1 has income between $400-1000 per month, and prides himself on living cheaply. Emerges he has $100K+ in student loans that he leaves out of his posts on frugality.
  • Guy2 is tapping into his IRAs to fund a business, yet has an emergency fund, life insurance, disability insurance, health insurance up the wazoo.
Both of these people need to get more inflows, and shake up their understanding of money. They don't realize that they are bleeding money/wealth by following really weird rules and approaches to life. They have real, present day emergencies occurring, but think that they are safe from 'an emergency'.

I'm not quite done with wrapping my head around who needs what, when, as a broad rule, but I think I can easily work with people on a one to one to fix these misunderstandings.
 

RWC75

Level 2 Member
I guess the root of my issue is defining the situation where someone actually needs money and doesn't have it. I'm not suggesting that people forgo an EF just to go off and get hookers and blow, I'm suggesting that people probably have enough already and are losing efficiency by demanding that they allot X into an account under a certain 'name'.
I'll definitely grant that there's some efficiency hits by having 4-10k sitting in a savings account.

I also think that there's a lot of psychological safety that is of immense value to some people, that comes from having that visible cushion (my wife is definitely one of those....). That's a factor that's hard to dismiss - we who get disappointed only being able to MS 50k / year on an OBC are a breed apart in terms of our conception of money / safety / risk / etc. Most run-of-the-mill 'Muricans don't think in the same way we do.

If you're giving people advice, it's best not to forget the frame of mind they're coming from. Changing that frame can be long and arduous. Best to start with small shifts rather than going the whole shebang.

EDIT: One other factor to consider is whether "you" - i.e. the financially savvy wunderkind - is going to be capable of making financial decisions in an emergency situation. It is entirely possible that the emergency that happens is you getting taken out of action for days or weeks at a time. In those instances, when your partner/family is under immense stress, making it as easy as possible to access liquid funds is a very very good idea IMO.
 
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