Are you too poor for First Class?

Risk

Level 2 Member
We were spoiled when I got in on the Delta Glitch a few years ago and did 2 west coast trips for pennies and on one of them we were in "lie flat" 1st class.
Getting spoiled is a clear and present danger. That's one of the reasons I don't even want to try upper classes.
 

MickiSue

Level 2 Member
It really doesn't make sense to me to avoid doing something that is easily achievable and very pleasant, in fear that one might want to get used to it.

There are ways to ensure that those pleasurable and somewhat indulgent activities can continue.
 

knarayan

Level 2 Member
I would love to fly J or F but that will have to wait for now till the kids are home. We love travelling and try and take 1 trip a year. The kids enjoy visiting new places considering earlier it typically used to be drive vacations. I don't want to burn up my miles. I hope to take 1 trip at some point of time in F along with the kids some time.
 

smittytabb

Moderator
Staff member
They are being burned up for you, the only constant is devaluation....
Made friends with a guy on my last cruise. He has accumulated 3 million Membership Rewards points. It's interesting because he only uses one credit card and he only flies business on those points when he travels, which is about 9 months of the year. After trying to challenge some of the logic, I came to realize that this works for him. He cannot be bothered with the complicated stuff most of us do. So be it.
 

MickiSue

Level 2 Member
I agree, Smitty. Brother and his wife save Delta points. Period.

I told them about how they could get more points, or even cash back, by either going through the Delta shopping portal, or other, cash back portals. Their eyes were glazing over.

And he's an MD, and she's got a degree, as well. They fly business, maybe, every three or four years, and go to Europe at least twice a year. It's what makes them feel good, so, it works for them.

I LIKE the knowledge that, by working a little harder, I can fly J or F, whenever I want to, and stay at quirky hotels for the cost of the time it takes me to MS on a 2% or 5% card.
 

knarayan

Level 2 Member
They are being burned up for you, the only constant is devaluation....
I just meant I will probably go on atleast 1 J or F before the kids moved out. I make sure I keep using my miles!! Just accumulating doesn't work for me!!
 

spamman808

Level 2 Member
I don't make enough, or MS enough to entertain the idea of flying in F all the time. What I like about this mindset (hobby?) is that it allows me to free up cash I would have spent to traveling anyway, and put it elsewhere that will eventually help me be better off financially. I guess in that sense I focus more on points/miles than cash back. And of the miles I earn I'd rather go to more places than spend them all flying in the front. If I experience F, it's on a free upgrade domestically. If I'm "stuck" in Y, I'm perfectly happy just to be getting where I'm going.
 

Dwater

Level 2 Member
They are being burned up for you, the only constant is devaluation....
You can counteract the constant devaluation by taking advantage of sales.

You can only take advantage of sales by actually having points on hand.

Example..... Virgin is currently doing one ways to the UK for 12.5K
(40K for first class which looks incredible pretty nice)

I don't believe in hoarding but burning for the sake of burning can also cost you far more value than devaluations.

And TBF devaluations haven't really hurt those of us who don't mind traveling in Econ as much. :)
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
You can counteract the constant devaluation by taking advantage of sales.

You can only take advantage of sales by actually having points on hand.

Example..... Virgin is currently doing one ways to the UK for 12.5K
(40K for first class which looks incredible pretty nice)

I don't believe in hoarding but burning for the sake of burning can also cost you far more value than devaluations.

And TBF devaluations haven't really hurt those of us who don't mind traveling in Econ as much. :)
I always have points on hand. I always burn. You can do both, it is just a case of keeping an emergency fund, and earning enough to replenish. When the sales come around you could dip into the reserve to capitalize on them.. Personally I 'try' to keep about 100K in 3 transferable programs which was enough for the 2 of us to move fast on things, but I've been running hot recently and dipped a bit lower - that said, we've got all the travel we can handle booked right now, including international J for 3 of us, so I have time to rebuild.

I disagree that it can cost you more to burn, we must remember that 'burning' involves living life, seeing things, growing as a person, and whatnot. When done right.. but there are always going to be people who don't get the full value from something, myself included.

I agree generally that the hits have been on the premium cabin space, but that might also be an indication that they are worth more too.
 

Dwater

Level 2 Member
I always have points on hand. I always burn. You can do both, it is just a case of keeping an emergency fund, and earning enough to replenish. When the sales come around you could dip into the reserve to capitalize on them.. Personally I 'try' to keep about 100K in 3 transferable programs which was enough for the 2 of us to move fast on things, but I've been running hot recently and dipped a bit lower - that said, we've got all the travel we can handle booked right now, including international J for 3 of us, so I have time to rebuild.

I disagree that it can cost you more to burn, we must remember that 'burning' involves living life, seeing things, growing as a person, and whatnot. When done right.. but there are always going to be people who don't get the full value from something, myself included.

I agree generally that the hits have been on the premium cabin space, but that might also be an indication that they are worth more too.

We assume devaluation going forward but we don't talk about the value of getting those points going forward

While point value is important, its also important to look at what it costs in terms of effort/time/money to get those points.

I think its fair to say MS/Churning will get harder going forward.
If it costs us more effort/time/money to get points (and they are getting devalued), then it should be obvious that we have to think more carefully about how we use them.

My "burning" point means that I have seen people get redic 1st class seats for shorter journeys assuming their Exec or Plat churning will last for ever.
Where a more careful approach to spending miles could lead to far MORE of life's experiences for the same amount of currency.

In my experience the vast majority of people are terrible shoppers.

There may come a time when the careful shoppers will be the only ones who get significant value from what we do.
I have seen it in other "advantage" areas. People drop away as it becomes less easy.

We are without doubt in a golden age because the vast majority of people out there have no idea what we do or how much value we are getting.
 

smittytabb

Moderator
Staff member
I always have points on hand. I always burn.

I disagree that it can cost you more to burn, we must remember that 'burning' involves living life, seeing things, growing as a person, and whatnot. When done right.. but there are always going to be people who don't get the full value from something, myself included.

I agree generally that the hits have been on the premium cabin space, but that might also be an indication that they are worth more too.
Yes...this. Burning does involve living life, seeing things, growing as a person. A lot of people get it backwards. The miles and points are a means to an end, not the end itself. I have met MSers who don't like to travel because it keeps them from MSing. Holding on to miles and points waiting for the best use can be the same way.
 

volker

Level 2 Member
I think its more a question of lifestyle, preferences and what you value most. Why should I spend it on first class if I can be frugal, fly in economy and let the other cash back work for me the next 20 years and hopefully retire one year earlier? Alternatively, why should I spend more time in earning more points to be able to afford first when I could spend this time with my kid?
 

Dwater

Level 2 Member
Yes...this. Burning does involve living life, seeing things, growing as a person. A lot of people get it backwards. The miles and points are a means to an end, not the end itself. I have met MSers who don't like to travel because it keeps them from MSing. Holding on to miles and points waiting for the best use can be the same way.
This only makes sense if they are doing it for cash or they are selling miles for cash.
But then that's a totally different reason than most of us do this.
I mix cash with miles so we can go on amazing vacations.
 

MickiSue

Level 2 Member
I don't get the almost moralizing attitude toward using points for the front of the plane, or of earning points instead of cash back, for that matter. It's not YOUR time, nor is it YOUR money.

People are autonomous and have the right to spend their time as they see fit. I have no small kids. But when my grandson was here last summer, he went on my rounds with me. What kid DOESN'T like to go for a car ride, and have people at CVS fawn over them?

As for front of plane tix. I've made my position pretty clear: I want my trip to be fun from the minute I walk into the airport. And with GE, and lounge access, it will be much more so than in the excruciatingly long lines outside TSA line, and sitting in the awkward seats at the gate.

For long hauls, I want to be able to sleep and/or relax. I don't want the food to make me sick. I tend to fly SW, rather than a legacy, for domestic, because we have a CP. But really, even if I blew a bunch of MY miles on F for a flight from MSP to MDW, why would YOU care?

And if I MS 40K a month in miles, again, why would YOU care?
 

GettingReady

Level 2 Member
Speaking of first and business class, how likely is it to get bumped when booked with points? Just thinking of our EU trip in Sept and our first time ever of flying with points.
 

MickiSue

Level 2 Member
IME, I've never been bumped. I suppose it can happen. But when you are flying upfront, it's not like you will be too much in danger of someone buying the seat out from under you at the last minute; walk up F or J is EXPENSIVE.

There's always a chance that the flight will be delayed, and you'll miss your connection, and need to scramble for seats on another flight. But if you scheduled your flights far enough apart, it lessens that worry.
 

smittytabb

Moderator
Staff member
Speaking of first and business class, how likely is it to get bumped when booked with points? Just thinking of our EU trip in Sept and our first time ever of flying with points.
What do you mean by "bumped"? It can have more than one meaning. Is this something you want to have happen or are avoiding happening? Are you worried that your miles reservation is less secure than a paid reservation? Or are you hoping to get compensation and want to be bumped. Not sure why you are asking.
 

stron

Level 2 Member
I'm a late entrant to credit card bonuses when most of them are winding down. F is too rich for my blood. Perhaps I could pay J for myself, but it adds up when traveling with the family. I don't want to eat into my saving goals by spending a lot of dough on J. It shall wait for the future after my savings/investment goals are met. For now, I shall maximize the miles.
 

GettingReady

Level 2 Member
IME, I've never been bumped. I suppose it can happen. But when you are flying upfront, it's not like you will be too much in danger of someone buying the seat out from under you at the last minute; walk up F or J is EXPENSIVE.

There's always a chance that the flight will be delayed, and you'll miss your connection, and need to scramble for seats on another flight. But if you scheduled your flights far enough apart, it lessens that worry.
What do you mean by "bumped"? It can have more than one meaning. Is this something you want to have happen or are avoiding happening? Are you worried that your miles reservation is less secure than a paid reservation? Or are you hoping to get compensation and want to be bumped. Not sure why you are asking.
Sorry for the confusing terminology. We have our first award bookings for our EU trip in Sept. We're flying first/business going and returning on first. I had read about people getting bumped, which I thought meant being downgraded to other seats. Not looking for compensation or wanting to get bumped since we have reservations booked, cruise scheduled, etc. I didn't know if we could lose our seats for a paying customer.
 

smittytabb

Moderator
Staff member
Sorry for the confusing terminology. We have our first award bookings for our EU trip in Sept. We're flying first/business going and returning on first. I had read about people getting bumped, which I thought meant being downgraded to other seats. Not looking for compensation or wanting to get bumped since we have reservations booked, cruise scheduled, etc. I didn't know if we could lose our seats for a paying customer.
To be honest, it *could* happen, but it is not something I worry about happening. You have a valid ticket booked into a specific class of service. Make sure you check in early online or at the airport. If you miss a connection the airlines should book you into the same class of service as booked on new flights. I worry more about losing my upgraded seat on a paid reservation than my award reservation booked into that class of service. I know the first time it seems hard to believe you are riding up front, but I have booked so many award tickets on so many airlines in first and business I've lost track of how many and I have never lost my seat, ever.
 

Matt

Administrator
Staff member
Sorry for the confusing terminology. We have our first award bookings for our EU trip in Sept. We're flying first/business going and returning on first. I had read about people getting bumped, which I thought meant being downgraded to other seats. Not looking for compensation or wanting to get bumped since we have reservations booked, cruise scheduled, etc. I didn't know if we could lose our seats for a paying customer.
I'm not an expert at this, but there is voluntary and involuntary downgrades to be aware of. The airlines try to get volunteers first, and if they cannot, there are events when someone might be involuntarily downgraded. Compensation for this is generally quite decent and follows rules based on the jurisdiction of the flight.

If you were to be involuntarily bumped and it was covered by the DOT then you'd be looking at this:


  • Involuntary bumping

    DOT requires each airline to give all passengers who are bumped involuntarily a written statement describing their rights and explaining how the carrier decides who gets on an oversold flight and who doesn't. Those travelers who don't get to fly are frequently entitled to denied boarding compensation in the form of a check or cash. The amount depends on the price of their ticket and the length of the delay:

    * If you are bumped involuntarily and the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to get you to your final destination (including later connections) within one hour of your original scheduled arrival time, there is no compensation.

    * If the airline arranges substitute transportation that is scheduled to arrive at your destination between one and two hours after your original arrival time (between one and four hours on international flights), the airline must pay you an amount equal to 200% of your one-way fare to your final destination that day, with a $650 maximum.

    * If the substitute transportation is scheduled to get you to your destination more than two hours later (four hours internationally), or if the airline does not make any substitute travel arrangements for you, the compensation doubles (400% of your one-way fare, $1300 maximum).

    * If your ticket does not show a fare (for example, a frequent-flyer award ticket or a ticket issued by a consolidator), your denied boarding compensation is based on the lowest cash, check or credit card payment charged for a ticket in the same class of service (e.g., coach, first class) on that flight.

    * You always get to keep your original ticket and use it on another flight. If you choose to make your own arrangements, you can request an "involuntary refund" for the ticket for the flight you were bumped from. The denied boarding compensation is essentially a payment for your inconvenience.

    * If you paid for optional services on your original flight (e.g., seat selection, checked baggage) and you did not receive those services on your substitute flight or were required to pay a second time, the airline that bumped you must refund those payments to you.

    Like all rules, however, there are a few conditions and exceptions:

    * To be eligible for compensation, you must have a confirmed reservation. A written confirmation issued by the airline or an authorized agent or reservation service qualifies you in this regard even if the airline can't find your reservation in the computer, as long as you didn't cancel your reservation or miss a reconfirmation deadline.

    * Each airline has a check-in deadline, which is the amount of time before scheduled departure that you must present yourself to the airline at the airport. For domestic flights most carriers require you to be at the departure gate between 10 minutes and 30 minutes before scheduled departure, but some deadlines can be an hour or longer. Check-in deadlines on international flights can be as much as three hours before scheduled departure time. Some airlines may simply require you to be at the ticket/baggage counter by this time; most, however, require that you get all the way to the boarding area. Some may have deadlines at both locations. If you miss the check-in deadline, you may have lost your reservation and your right to compensation if the flight is oversold.

    * As noted above, no compensation is due if the airline arranges substitute transportation which is scheduled to arrive at your destination within one hour of your originally scheduled arrival time.

    * If the airline must substitute a smaller plane for the one it originally planned to use, the carrier isn't required to pay people who are bumped as a result. In addition, on flights using aircraft with 30 through 60 passenger seats, compensation is not required if you were bumped due to safety-related aircraft weight or balance constraints.

    * The rules do not apply to charter flights, or to scheduled flights operated with planes that hold fewer than 30 passengers. They don't apply to international flights inbound to the United States, although some airlines on these routes may follow them voluntarily. Also, if you are flying between two foreign cities -- from Paris to Rome, for example -- these rules will not apply. The European Commission has a rule on bumpings that occur in an EC country; ask the airline for details, or go to http://ec.europa.eu/transport/passengers/air/air_en.htm.

    Airlines set their own "boarding priorities" -- the order in which they will bump different categories of passengers in an oversale situation. When a flight is oversold and there are not enough volunteers, some airlines bump passengers with the lowest fares first. Others bump the last passengers to check in. Once you have purchased your ticket, the most effective way to reduce the risk of being bumped is to get to the airport early. For passengers in the same fare class the last passengers to check in are usually the first to be bumped, even if they have met the check-in deadline. Allow extra time; assume that the roads are backed up, the parking lot is full, and there is a long line at the check-in counter.

    Airlines may offer free tickets or dollar-amount vouchers for future flights in place of a check for denied boarding compensation. However, if you are bumped involuntarily you have the right to insist on a check if that is your preference. Once you cash the check (or accept the free flight), you will probably lose the ability to pursue more money from the airline later on. However, if being bumped costs you more money than the airline will pay you at the airport, you can try to negotiate a higher settlement with their complaint department. If this doesn't work, you usually have 30 days from the date on the check to decide if you want to accept the amount of the check. You are always free to decline the check (e.g., not cash it) and take the airline to court to try to obtain more compensation. DOT's denied boarding regulation spells out the airlines' minimum obligation to people they bump involuntarily. Finally, don't be a "no-show." If you are holding confirmed reservations you don't plan to use, notify the airline. If you don't, they will cancel all onward or return reservations on your trip.
Also, if you were bumped (off the plane) you'd be rebooked and you should be placed into a revenue ticket, so you'd earn miles (always add a frequent flyer number to a rebooked ticket, even to a downgraded seat on the same plane, they book using different fare codes..).

You are not a second class citizen for using miles. To help trick yourself think of it like this: Imagine that you really spend hundreds of thousands on the airline for business travel and you are finally cashing in a reward for your loyalty. Your award ticket is actually more valuable to the airline than a revenue ticket from an disloyal but paying customer in F. Take that mindset.

You do hear about things happening from time to time, but if you do not fly in the seat that you paid for, you are entitled to compensation, which might be close to enough to booking another trip.
 

GettingReady

Level 2 Member
Thanks for the info. I'm actually going to print it out. It's nice to know it's s not a common occurrence. I'll cross it off my "Things to Worry About" list. :p .

No doubt I've added more stress wanting this to be a memorable trip for hubs. I'm trying to plan for every possible scenario which is impossible.
 
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MickiSue

Level 2 Member
Even better than "not a common occurrence."

Smitty has traveled a LOT. And, upfront, a LOT. If *she's* never been downgraded, I will assume that the likelihood of it happening is in the neighborhood of winning the lottery.
 

smittytabb

Moderator
Staff member
Thanks for the info. I'm actually going to print it out. It's nice to know it's s not a common occurrence. I'll cross it off my "Things to Worry About" list. :p .

No doubt I've added more stress wanting this to be a memorable trip for hubs. I'm trying to plan for every possible scenario which is impossible.
I get it. I worry a lot more when I travel with my husband. I do the planning and I want things to go easily. When alone, I roll with whatever happens. Wanting it perfect for someone else adds a lot of stress.
 

MickiSue

Level 2 Member
Exactly. We don't always travel together, but when we do, I want it to go smoothly, because both of us--he AND I--believe that I know what I'm doing. Sometimes, not so much.

Coming home from Jamaica, our flight was delayed 4 hours d/t too much traffic in the air, and the Jamaica version of air traffic control decided to space the planes out a bit.

Luckily, as we were flying SW, we had Priority Pass, so spent a pleasant enough time reading and talking in the lounge.

But I knew that, by the time we got to Chicago, our flight to MSP would likely have landed.

So I bought wireless access on the plane, and reserved a room near the hotel while we were flying.

One less thing to worry about once we landed.
 

Benjamin

Level 2 Member
And that way, our vacations start when we get to the ticket counter, and check in at first class, go through the pre-screen line, and head for the first class lounge.
This is pinpoint!!! I fully look at this game that way. I want to be shuttled around and treated like a "king" because in my normal life I most certainly am not.

My issue so far is that I just don't have the know-how to start accruing tons of miles/points. I think you are right about changing my mind once I see the ease of accumulation. Here is to hoping that is sooner than later!
 
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